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Mp's Saluting Officers
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Picture of TransAm95NCO
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quote:
Originally posted by k9nermp:
but I also don't generally give tickets to Officers.


you give tickets to enlisted?


Lead by Example!!!
 
Posts: 3914 | Location: Somewhere in the US | Registered: 13 September 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of k9nermp
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Yeah why not? I'm not saying that Officers will not ever get a ticket from me and I probably have given some. Enlisted are not above getting a ticket more so when it is a Post Reg coming from the CG and you wanna argue that I'm wrong. The ticket goes back to their Commander and they are dealt with then. Of course it depends on if I give them a warning or not.

Cool and Calm = warning
Yelling and saying I don't know what I'm talking about = no warning

Enough tickets even though it's not a money fine can get ones driving on post revocked (sp) or so I am told. I will also give another MP a ticket with no problem as they are supposed to up hold the laws in which they are breaking.


The average Shepard can run 35mph, can you??
 
Posts: 231 | Location: Ft Jackson | Registered: 25 August 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of Smittaayy
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Personally, I'll salute an officer while working as long as they aren't the problem. If I make a traffic stop, it's because they were being a knucklehead, so now their on MY time. No salute for them.


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Posts: 1086 | Location: Germany | Registered: 11 February 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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I ALWAYS salute officers while under arms. At Fort Polk a lot of MPs use that excuse to not salute which to me is BS, but I will NEVER stand at parade rest while on duty. I will give all common courtesy "Yes Sergeant Major" etc, but I will not stand at parade rest. That is acceptable where I am from, I don't know about where else but that's how I operate.



Oh and in the past 3 years ive been working, I've never given a single ticket. I don't like making life difficult for other people. I don't need to be an ass to people to feel good about myself. Everyone makes mistakes. I have more problems with the upper echelon of Fort Polk when it comes to traffic safety than I do the ordinary joe because they act like they can do whatever they want with no regard for anyone else's safety.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 204thMP,
 
Posts: 51 | Registered: 08 April 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Treat everybody calmly and with the respect that every human deserves (but have a plan to kill them if needed)

I was in back when the MP's were Old School and sometimes they would even brag about getting a little "stick time" on some drunk, abusive, and belligerent 2nd LT or a sicko child molester back in the cell-but in retrospect that didn't make it right.

I always found that it was easier dealing with the drunk, high, and pissed off by not getting in a pissing match and escalating the situation. They make a move, it's on, but why go there if you don't have to.
 
Posts: 4 | Location: Texas | Registered: 02 February 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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That reminds me...

We used to have this one doofus MP back in the day who would insist on sitting at the officers table in the mess hall because he was a "po-lice officer" Roll Eyes

Needless to say, he sat by himself.

Dork.
 
Posts: 4 | Location: Texas | Registered: 02 February 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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I respect the idea that MP's are Military and Police, not Police Military, our bearing and discipline comes from our military heritage, so it seems logical that this debate continues on. The first thing that needs to be said is, unless you are a MP/31B who has worked the road, your opinion is not compelling...sorry to be rude, but you have no experience with what MP's must deal with and the dual role we play. To the other MP's I say simply this, if you don't think you are a Police Officer when working the road, you need to get your mind right. You are not a soldier performing law enforcemenr duties...you are the police, having a badge is of no consequence. MP's have the authority of the base commander, through applicable law and regulations. Guess what guys, the commander didn't give you the authority to apprehend, the UCMJ and MCM did! Understanding this is very important, because a if you think you are merely a soldier doing a job, with no real authority, then the public is in danger, your fellow officers are in danger, and you are too! A central tenat to this principle of understanding is, that all individuals under you are charged with policing are equally capable of doing harm and killing you! Officers are no exception, if you remember, Hasan was a field grade officer! If an officer starts to make exceptions in how he comes across and deals with individuals than his objectivity becomes jaded and his ability to stay professional is hindered. I have two classes of people, subjects, and everyone else. I treat pFC's the same as civilians the same as i treat officers the same as NCO's. The only differance is the way I adress them. As MPI, I called everyone sir or maam. Weapon retention is the often cited reason to no render salutes and stand at parade rest, it is a valid concern, weapon retention and officer safety should be exercised in all situations. The day you slip up and get laxidasial is the day you need to stop working the road, cuz you will get your self hurt or killed. Some suggest that the regs say MP's salute and since it happens six feet out a MP can quickly whip it up then chop it down. Well the regs also state that the enlisted initiate and don't drop until after the officer drops theirs...so lets be honest with ourselves both ideas are against regs, but only one recognizes officer safety. When dealing with to parade rest or not, the answer is NO! MP's are taught in Basic the ready position when talking to the public, one hand in a light loose fist that is covered by the other, arms slightly bent and to the front, one foot out in front of the other for a strong yet non aggressive posture. Standing with a narrow base with your hands behind your back, weapon exsposed, is bad policy, you can't scan your flanks and all your attention is to the front of you. The good csm not withstanding, you don't know who else might seize the opportunity to assault and disarm you. It also sets up a bad precedence. If you stand at parade rest in public view of other NCO's, they might wonder why you arent standing at it before them. I challenge you to find the regulation that mandates parade rest for superior NCO's...there isn't one, it merely says it is done because it is the right thing to do...well not when on the road as a cop! The situation can mostly be avoided anyway. Why are NCO's in your crime scene or cordon anyway? If a csm wants to get on my scene, then I have to nut up and tell that csm to please move back and that this area is blocked off. At this point you are moving to enforce the boundaries of the cordone. If the csm wants to chat a little, you chat with him, do a canvass interview to see what he knows and saw. In the end, if a NCO wants to confront and discipline a MP on the road, then that NCO needs to know that they are obstructing justie and acting disorderly! If you wouldn't allow a PVT to interfere in your investigation, why would you allow a NCO too!
Back to saluting at traffic stops...I am bladed when i approach a vehicle, and my hand is by my weapon. It then is grasping their information, on second approach, I either have my ticket book in hand or their information. When concluding the stop, I hand their information back, then walk backwards keeping my eye on them, then turn around and return to my vehicle...at what point did I have the opportunity to salute? Even if my hands were empty and I wasn't bladed, when do you salute an officer who is faced in the same direction you are...exactly.
Dispite contentions to the contrary, there is a sound military reason soldiers stand at attention and salute officers, as there are for parade rest for NCO's. Its a non verbal way of establishing who the superior is and who the subordinate is. It reinforces the chain of command and ultimatly reminds the lower ranking who is in charge. If you stand before someone, then by regulation they are in charge of that formation. By regulation only the one in charge of the formation can dismiss it, if your at parade rest, you must first come to attention to be dismissed. Not only is this dangerous, but it disallows the MP from doing his job as he is stuck until the NCO/O releases him. The only person who controls my MP's on the road, is the patrol supervisor, and the MPDO/LEDO...so which regulation do we choose to ignore? Again the MP is caught between the dual worlds he must occupy. I train my soldiers that they are in charge of whatever scene they are on, I train them to be assertive and do their job, I train them to be professional, not military professional, but police professional. If I could I would replace rank on the road MP with a us patch like CID!

In summation, officer safety, weapons retention, situational awareness, duty performance, bad presedence, command and control of assets and manpower, are all reasons why parade rest for sure, and saluting for the most part need to be curtailed and abandoned while working the road. If not then what you have is a cadre of glorified security guards, who arent being treated as police officers, and so strangely enough they dont act like police officers. Ive worked in places like that, and casework suffers, evidence is suspect, charges get dropped or fail to prosecute and over all crime prevention and public safety suffers. Treat the MP as a police officer, and he will act like one...he is not a PFC or SPC, he is a police officer, his rank is imaterial to the duties he is sworn and trained to perform. Come on guys, the highest ranking officer on post has delegated his authority to the MP. It is a no no to say, but it is absolutly true, do not confuse my rank with my authority. If it sounds like I think road MP's are special, and that we are cocky and arrogant, you might be right...MPs police the nations warriors and bad asses! The weak can't control a combat veteran, trained to fight, and in shape, and bring them into compliance. So leave us alone and let us do our jobs, if we offend you because we dint salute or stand still for you, don't be, we mean no disrespect! If you really feel that a MP needs to salute you and give you respect...or you feel the need to asert your authority over us...come to the station after shift and we will salute and stand at attention or p rest...but when we are working, lives are on the line stow your ego and let us be hero's and save the day Smiler
 
Posts: 10 | Registered: 26 July 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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[
As a side-note, an Infantry captain can legally command a company of enlisted MPs, but an MP captain [u:4b2a0baf0d]cannot[/u:4b2a0baf0d] command a company of Infantrymen. The point[b:4b2a0baf0d]:[/b:4b2a0baf0d] An enlisted MP must still salute a commissioned officer, even if they are both under arms. Please don't throw rocks at me, as I've been an enlisted MP, as well as a commissioned MP.[/QUOTE]
Thats not exactly true...Infantry assets training IP's or iraqi mp's fall under the the PM cell. So a MP can command infantry. Furthermore, A company of MP's would never have any other offcer other a MP. Its a silly exercise and confuses the point anyway...the real issue is when MP's are empowered by the post commander, federal law, and regulation to be police officers. This designation changes all things drastically. For instance, a PFC can now apprehend anyone who violates the UCMJ on post subject to the code. No other PFC can do that! So an acknowledgement of the differing situation must be made! The regulations for saluting say that gate guards salute, unless inpractical to do so. Road MP's are not gate guards, even when covering down and helping check id's. The simple fact of the matter is MP's on scene are in charge, you aren't...unless you are the post commander. If you don't like a PFC telling you you can't enter or give you an order, to bad, disobey him at risk of apprehension.
I am at Ft stewart, and I train my road MP's to not stand at parade rest, not even for me, when in police uniform. I tell them that at all times they must take control of a scene and of the situation. standing at parade rest wrests control away and places my officer under anothers control and authority, and that can not happen! We have a job to do, and its protecting lives and property, we can't do that hindered by any limitation except that provided by law. Lastly, MP school teaches us to stand at the ready position when talking to the public...so theres your answer
 
Posts: 10 | Registered: 26 July 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of 31BV5
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MPs are not exempt from rendering military customs and courtesies except when that particular individual may present a threat to them. IE an Officer under apprehension, or while conducting a canvass interview with an NCO outside of that particular soldier's unit and not in a leadership position over that soldier.
Yes, the 94th MP BN just started regulating standards of MP training in Korea...but through the PNN it gets diluted to "we don't have to salute officers because we're under arms".

LICKY BEARS!
 
Posts: 4 | Location: 557th Military Police Co. | Registered: 13 August 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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4-14. Salutes are not required when:

Indoors, unless reporting to an officer or when on duty as a guard.
A prisoner.
Saluting is obviously inappropriate. In any case not covered by specific instructions, render the salute.
Either the senior or the subordinate is wearing civilian clothes.

4-15. In general, you don't salute when you are working (for example, under your vehicle doing maintenance), indoors (except when reporting), or when saluting is not practical (carrying articles with both hands, for example). A good rule of thumb is this: if you are outdoors and it is practical to salute, do so. Outdoors includes theater marquees, shelters over gas station pumps, covered walkways, and other similar shelters that are open on the sides.

Copy paste outta FM 7-21.13, chapter 4. This soldier was wrong according to field manual standard. This is one of our bibles.
 
Posts: 8 | Location: AZ | Registered: 19 September 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of Smittaayy
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@mpnco... you're my hero. Well said.


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Posts: 1086 | Location: Germany | Registered: 11 February 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of ThatGuy253
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ditto! very well said mpnco!

MP Warrior
 
Posts: 4 | Location: Joint Base Lewis-McChord, WA | Registered: 24 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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