I think the quality of SOLDIERS is horrible today...they are coming to units broke and with bad attitudes because they are not weeded out in basic training cause they are pushed through just to keep the numbers up. I think its SAD!!
Posts: 7 | Location: KOREA | Registered: 01 July 2006
i agree with you. i was one station unit training when i went to basic and ait, and i graduated with someone who didnt qualify with her m16 until the last 2 weeks of ait. she was brought to the range 5 or 6 times to qualify, and finally qulaified with a 23. i think its ridiculous that people are being pushed through that cant do some of the most important tasks a soldier is trained for. i was also the last company to go through before they introduced "low stress" basic training.
Yeah I agree that the standards are becoming to relaxed at basic. I admit I went to Fort Jackson for basic back in 1993, pre co-ed training and all. No matter what anyone says it wasn't easy to say the least. The standards these days are just pitiful, I mean I get soldiers to my unit who do fifty pushups on their APFT and give each other high fives, I can only shake my head. Add to that the the leadership is afraid to push the soldiers, one because they are out of shape themselves, two they have to be in total control of the PT session. So yeah the standards of basic are going down, in my unit they continue to support the degradation of it.
STAY READY to keep from GETTING READY!
Posts: 6 | Location: Fort Wainwright, AK | Registered: 02 July 2006
I did basic when I was a US Marine at Parris Island, South Carolina. That was back in 1990 so I can comment on Army basic. When I crossed over to the other side I was not required to attend any Army Basic Training. I was stuck at Fort Jackson for several months awaiting my security clearance to attend 96B course. While there I did observe some things that caused me to wonder what the hell is going on at basic training. I still think that the Marines have it right when they seperate the males from the females. All female recruits are sent across the training post, all the drills are female, the officers are female as well. There are little to no reports of sexual harrassment, sexual misconduct, or false reporting of Drills sleeping with basic training recruits. Maybe if the Army went this route I am sure the number of senior NCOs and Soldiers sleeping around would drop dramatically. Just one of several points that I found odd. Is the U.S. Army failing junior Soldiers? I would say no, we as leaders are failing them. If we don't mentor, counsel propperly, take time to actually teach Soldiers what it is to become a leader then we are only ensuring that these new Soldiers will be filling up more and more body bags as they are shipped off to the Sandbox and Afghan-land. I say that the Army needs to do away with specific Boot Camps and create 2 or 3 major sites that train the entire Army. Same standards, same method, same goals. That way there would be no ideals of "Relax Jackson" etc etc. Combat Arms, MPs, Intel, Cook, Admin, para-legal would all go to the same basic and same post and learn the same idea.
Posts: 213 | Location: 513th MI BDE, Fort Gordon, GA | Registered: 06 July 2006
I'd give my two cents, but some of you wouldn't like it.
So I'll give one cent.
I completely understand where Epic Honor is coming from. I came in the Army as an E-1, and went waiverless until I was promoted to SPC, which only came 2 months early anyway. If you ask me, the period between SPC and SGT is where it all counts. Most of the specialists that I've known took between 1 and 2 years to obtain promotable status, let alone make E-5. Of course, a certain portion of these can be attributed to wildly fluctuating cutoff scores, and then ones that perpetually stay at 798 (which is unnerving, because its not 800, which makes it seem so reachable...). I've been a SPC now for 7 months, and as long as those stupid scores stay where they are, I'll be pinned on October 1st. I've spent my entire 2 years and 3 months long Army career (How's that for TIS?) striving for Sergeant. I've earned a reputation of being the go-to guy. I've kept myself out of trouble. I did my correspondence, my college, my PT, my schools, my weapons quals. I'm proud to say that I'm 110% positive I earned every bit of my pending promotion.
It's not jealousy, it's just pride. You know that you've been through a lot getting to where you are today, and you know that you're a better soldier for that.
It's just like those of you that can't stand it that recruits have it easier in Basic now. You went through hell; how come they can't stand the heat? You want them to go through the same experience because you know that ultimately, the majority of soldiers will come out more disciplined and better prepared to handle the military. It's the same way with officers. I'm more inclined to respond to a 2LT that started as enlisted and went Green to Gold or OCS. Not saying West Pointers are inexperienced... but most of them enter the Army having spent very little time around the actual Army. My sister just recently graduated last year and has already been through OBC and has her own platoon, and I can personally attest to the fact that you DEFINITELY need experience. And some common sense. Because she doesn't have either, and I would probably think twice about following her into a firefight. Maybe in a year or two...
I'm not saying that soldier who gets others to join or completes the task list or finishes their Bachelor's Degree are less suited. They're not. In fact, I know quite a few of those soldiers I would choose to work with before I choose the "experienced" ones. But that is what they lack. Experience. And for the most part, when you think of an NCO, you think of experience. That this soldier has been in the Army for a hot minute and they'll know everything. That's all I'm saying.
I guess I gave 1 1/2 cents. Add in some expletives, and you'll get the other 1/2 cent.
I swear all this crying over the new soldier having it "easy". Shut up already, who freaking cares, so the hell what! When they get to your unit fix em, it's as simple as that. So what, you suffered at basic 100 years ago, what are you going to do to turn these new soldiers into the real deal? Crying about it ain't gonna help a damned thing. You want to know what makes me sick? Leaders, NCO's that pout becuase the soldiers that join today get priviledges after one week of basic. Stop whining and turn these young men and women into soldiers! That's your JOB! If they can't seem to square them away at basic and AIT, than you as an NCO and a leader of soldiers must remedy the situation and get that soldier straight. Maybe the Drill Sergeants are not allowed to make Joe Snuffy push till he pukes anymore, big deal. Don't let what the Drill Sergeants are not allowed to do, stop you from doing what you are obligated to do.
Originally posted by Army dad: I swear all this crying over the new soldier having it "easy". Shut up already, who freaking cares, so the hell what! When they get to your unit fix em, it's as simple as that. So what, you suffered at basic 100 years ago, what are you going to do to turn these new soldiers into the real deal? Crying about it ain't gonna help a damned thing. You want to know what makes me sick? Leaders, NCO's that pout becuase the soldiers that join today get priviledges after one week of basic. Stop whining and turn these young men and women into soldiers! That's your JOB! If they can't seem to square them away at basic and AIT, than you as an NCO and a leader of soldiers must remedy the situation and get that soldier straight. Maybe the Drill Sergeants are not allowed to make Joe Snuffy push till he pukes anymore, big deal. Don't let what the Drill Sergeants are not allowed to do, stop you from doing what you are obligated to do.
I don't wanna reply, but I.... can't.... hold back....
There's a reason for Basic Combat Training. I believe its supposed to teach new recruits little things like discipline. It IS the Drill Sergeant's duty t insure that privates coming out of Basic have been instilled with everything they need to make thier Army careers successful. It's the job of their future NCOs to BUILD on this foundation. And maybe some of these people did go through Basic 100 years ago ( ), but I didn't. And I'll say that even in the last two years, there's been a significant change in the way things are handled in Basic and AIT. I don't even need to see it to know, because there's been a definite change in attitude between new privates before and new privates now. No more than two years ago, when I arrived in Korea, I was still petrified. I was scared stiff, of NCOs in general. My battle buddy and I (from the same platoon in Basic) were so nervous that we kept calling everyone that yelled at us "Drill Sergeant". It happened several times. And we got smoked several times.
Fast forward 1 year and 4 months. Oddly enough, it was right around the time privates started arriving at their units with ACUs. (Myabe they put something in the uniforms...?) I started to notice that it was becoming a battle of epic proportions to get things done. Privates were yelling at NCOs, cursing at them, totally blowing them off. Doing things like saluting with their left hands, saluting while still doing other activities (i.e. one arm through your Gortex jacket and running), not standing at Parade Rest. We were at a range, and I was told to tell a PV2 a week out of basic to get ready to go to the night fire range. He told me he didn't want to go. He absolutely refused, because "it was too cold outside".
You're right, NCOs ARE obligated to straighten up new soldiers. Nobody's going to argue with that. I love helping soldiers out. It makes my day when I can put another soldier on the right track. But what exactly is basic doing for a soldier these days? I think the less soldiers are pushed in Basic, the slower they're going to pick up on things, because now, its more of a choice. You don't have to qualify until the last week if you don't want to. two years ago, if the end of White Cycle came around and the DS still had to drive you to the range everyday, you got recycled. Also, with the loss of yelling and pushing soldiers to thier limits, I believe there's been a loss in the sense of urgency. And I think that this is one of the biggest losses of all. You know when I say jump, you say "How high?". But lately, its turned into a time issue. When a soldier arrives at thier first unit, whats the chances that unit will be deploying in 3 months? NCOs have better things to do than discipline soldiers. They need to be training for WAR, the ultimate test of discipline and leadership.
Okay here is one, I have been in the Military for 7 years and just now went to the Promotion board ( NOT my NOC's Choice mine, just didnt think I was raedy and was afraid to fail as a NCO) and one point off of max. I went to Relaxin Jackson and though I was soldiered well there. I went to 1/508th Italy and was Soldiered okay there, then went to 3rd Special Forces and soldiered great there. I deployed with them and iam alive to talk about it. Now iam in USAREUR(United States Army Europe) HQ, I am Assistant Conference Coordinator. So I travel most of the time and SGT's Time I havent been to in God knows how long, my supervisors (Civilians) wont let me go. SOOOO I leave in 1 month to reclass to Chaplain Assistant yes in FT Jackson again. I Have not be soldiered in 2 years. Iam qualified on my weapon and do okay on PT. BUT the rest is blurry. I m concerned I wont be ready for school. I know my job as a Chaplain Assistant is important. I know I will learn while there BUT the recruits are going to have more fresh information...... I lost my point BUT no way iam erasing this so thats all if anyone thinks they know my point please tell me.
Have a good day and GOD bless
Posts: 1 | Location: Heidelberg Germany, soon Ft Campbell | Registered: 11 July 2006
Basic for me was tough. I had two truly dedicated and motivated drill seargents. My platoon was strong, but they all acted like highschool kids. We stayed in red phase until the last week. I got to use the phone 3 times total. And my wife/mom did not answer each time. I stayed silent I kept my eyes forward and I never faultered. I'm an expert with the m-16 I run a 12:00 min 2 mile and that's still to slow. And I lost over 30 lbs. 165 to 129.5. Even though my platoon had it the worst it was as real as BCT could get. I chose my mos specifically as well as the army because it fit me. It wasn't to easy and it wasn't to hard. If you got something to complain about then you didn't push yourself hard enough, or should have been a Marine. I have a spouse and a 1 year old to think about, so I cannot be selfish about my choices. BCT is fine AIT is where the real training begins. Your mos is 91-golf or something like that and you expect to have the same respect as an 11-bravo. That's foolish. From what i can tell you get out what you put in.
Posts: 81 | Location: fort meade, md | Registered: 08 August 2006
It is every NCO's duty to dicipline these Soldiers. A Sergeants job is to train Soldiers, dicipline is a part of training. You find me an NCO who isn't actively engaged in a fire fight that has something better to do then train his/her Soldiers, and I'll show you a dirt bag. You are absolutely right, certain things should be instilled in the Soldier at Basic Training, but as it has been made obviously clear, that simply isn't the case. You will be a Sergeant soon, and as an NCO your prospective on certain things will change. Soldiers, especially new Soldiers are not going to be well diciplined out the gate, they just left the block for crying out loud. A good NCO will see to it they receive the proper training to become diciplined and skilled combatants and experts of their MOS.
quote:
Originally posted by smitharrr:
quote:
Originally posted by Army dad: I swear all this crying over the new soldier having it "easy". Shut up already, who freaking cares, so the hell what! When they get to your unit fix em, it's as simple as that. So what, you suffered at basic 100 years ago, what are you going to do to turn these new soldiers into the real deal? Crying about it ain't gonna help a damned thing. You want to know what makes me sick? Leaders, NCO's that pout becuase the soldiers that join today get priviledges after one week of basic. Stop whining and turn these young men and women into soldiers! That's your JOB! If they can't seem to square them away at basic and AIT, than you as an NCO and a leader of soldiers must remedy the situation and get that soldier straight. Maybe the Drill Sergeants are not allowed to make Joe Snuffy push till he pukes anymore, big deal. Don't let what the Drill Sergeants are not allowed to do, stop you from doing what you are obligated to do.
I don't wanna reply, but I.... can't.... hold back....
There's a reason for Basic Combat Training. I believe its supposed to teach new recruits little things like discipline. It IS the Drill Sergeant's duty t insure that privates coming out of Basic have been instilled with everything they need to make thier Army careers successful. It's the job of their future NCOs to BUILD on this foundation. And maybe some of these people did go through Basic 100 years ago ( ), but I didn't. And I'll say that even in the last two years, there's been a significant change in the way things are handled in Basic and AIT. I don't even need to see it to know, because there's been a definite change in attitude between new privates before and new privates now. No more than two years ago, when I arrived in Korea, I was still petrified. I was scared stiff, of NCOs in general. My battle buddy and I (from the same platoon in Basic) were so nervous that we kept calling everyone that yelled at us "Drill Sergeant". It happened several times. And we got smoked several times.
Fast forward 1 year and 4 months. Oddly enough, it was right around the time privates started arriving at their units with ACUs. (Myabe they put something in the uniforms...?) I started to notice that it was becoming a battle of epic proportions to get things done. Privates were yelling at NCOs, cursing at them, totally blowing them off. Doing things like saluting with their left hands, saluting while still doing other activities (i.e. one arm through your Gortex jacket and running), not standing at Parade Rest. We were at a range, and I was told to tell a PV2 a week out of basic to get ready to go to the night fire range. He told me he didn't want to go. He absolutely refused, because "it was too cold outside".
You're right, NCOs ARE obligated to straighten up new soldiers. Nobody's going to argue with that. I love helping soldiers out. It makes my day when I can put another soldier on the right track. But what exactly is basic doing for a soldier these days? I think the less soldiers are pushed in Basic, the slower they're going to pick up on things, because now, its more of a choice. You don't have to qualify until the last week if you don't want to. two years ago, if the end of White Cycle came around and the DS still had to drive you to the range everyday, you got recycled. Also, with the loss of yelling and pushing soldiers to thier limits, I believe there's been a loss in the sense of urgency. And I think that this is one of the biggest losses of all. You know when I say jump, you say "How high?". But lately, its turned into a time issue. When a soldier arrives at thier first unit, whats the chances that unit will be deploying in 3 months? NCOs have better things to do than discipline soldiers. They need to be training for WAR, the ultimate test of discipline and leadership.
I went through boot camp in 96 in the Marines, so i have no hands on proof of what goes on in Army basic training. All I have is the stories I hear from the SOLDIERS that work for me. I can tell you that didnt fly when I went to boot and SOLDIERS these days are babied to the point where you cant even raies your voice to get thier attention. You have to "ask " them to do simple shit and the first thing out of their mouth is "why" WTF is really goin on. I have to ask you to do a important mission.
ARMY DAD you have no clue wat the hell you are talkin about!!! I have had 4 EO complaints for "pushing SOLDIERS to the limit" they are weak minded and have no pride at all! they r a bunch of cry babies!
Posts: 7 | Location: KOREA | Registered: 01 July 2006
Is that what it says on your EO complaint? "pushing Soldiers to the limit? Motivating a Soldier to do what needs to be done is about your leadership style. We've all had our share of NCO's that yelled at us, and as NCO's we've probably yelled at our Soldiers now and again, but the point I'm trying to make is what is going to make that Soldier respond and take action when you give him/her an order. Some Soldiers don't respond to yelling, so I talk to them like I would talk to anyone else, the get the information I'm putting out and they get the job done. Soldiers will respect you one of two ways, through fear or through reverance. If they fear you, a lot of times they harbor feelings of resentment as well, but for some Soldiers this is the only way they will understand; but know they will give you the bare minimum and nothing more. If they have a sense of reverance for you, they will want to mimic you, and getting them to comply with your instructions isn't an issue, they will do the job and do it well. One leadership style doesn't work for all Soldiers, they're complex. I've been accused on several occassions for being to nice to my troops, but I've never had any major issues with them. I assert my authourity off bat and let them know exactly what I expect from them and what they can expect from me. When they mess up, I correct them, sometimes it's push-ups, sometimes it's a counseling, sometimes it's a firm "talking to", sometimes it's "all up in your face, while you do push-ups", different strokes for different folks. When they do good I let them know, just because it's thier job, doesn't mean you can't give them some sort of praise for a job well done. Remember Soldiers are grown ass men and women, and you never know who you're dealing with. Some of these troops have never been yelled at in thier life, some of these Soldiers have seen combat in thier own neighborhoods. The point is they're all different, if you've got Soldiers that are that messed up that they question you when given instructions, and you've got 4 EO complaints stinkin up your NCOER, perhaps you should reassess your leadership style, as Soldiers are, for the most part, a direct reflection of thier leadership.
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Originally posted by stinkin-linkin: I went through boot camp in 96 in the Marines, so i have no hands on proof of what goes on in Army basic training. All I have is the stories I hear from the SOLDIERS that work for me. I can tell you that didnt fly when I went to boot and SOLDIERS these days are babied to the point where you cant even raies your voice to get thier attention. You have to "ask " them to do simple shit and the first thing out of their mouth is "why" WTF is really goin on. I have to ask you to do a important mission.
ARMY DAD you have no clue wat the hell you are talkin about!!! I have had 4 EO complaints for "pushing SOLDIERS to the limit" they are weak minded and have no pride at all! they r a bunch of cry babies!
The issue is not leadership styles AFTER Basic and AIT... its how soldiers are trained DURING Basic. I completely hear where your coming from, Army Dad. I'm not saying that everybody should be yelled at and smoked constantly. After Basic, its different. I myself was in charge of two soldiers at one point who were like fire and water. One I could go months without ever having to talk to and I didn't have to worry about his conduct, his room, his attitude, or anything. The other one I had to constantly dog about EVERYTHING, including reminding him to shave every morning. I had him sleeping in a GP medium for two weeks while keeping his room inspection ready because he couldn't keep it clean.
But in Basic, I think you need to be yelled at. People can't come into the Army thinking that its gonna be like when they worked at BK. They need to be jolted and rattled. Basic is supposed to test people's resolve.
Soldier's ARE grown ass men and women, like AD said. And Basic is where they should be growing up at. I can see people taking some time to adjust. But nowadays it's getting ridiculous.
ArmyStudyGuide Community 
), but I didn't. And I'll say that even in the last two years, there's been a significant change in the way things are handled in Basic and AIT. I don't even need to see it to know, because there's been a definite change in attitude between new privates before and new privates now. No more than two years ago, when I arrived in Korea, I was still petrified. I was scared stiff, of NCOs in general. My battle buddy and I (from the same platoon in Basic) were so nervous that we kept calling everyone that yelled at us "Drill Sergeant". It happened several times. And we got smoked several times. 
so thats all if anyone thinks they know my point please tell me.
