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Can a soldier be counseled twice for the same thing?
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posted
I have a battle who was negatively counseled for something. He signed the counseling, and there was no mention verbally or written in the counseling of any further punishment (besides the counseling). A couple weeks down the road the soldier was counseled again, for the same exact incident - this time informing him that he will be put in for an Art-15 (I don't know whether it's company or field grade).

I'm under the impression that a soldier can not be punished twice for the same thing (please correct me if I'm wrong). I've looked through AR27-10 and FM6-22 but neither seem to address the issue (maybe I'm looking in the wrong place...?)

I appreciate any advice or knowledge, and I'd really appreciate reg cites. Thanks guys.
 
Posts: 7 | Location: CONUS | Registered: 12 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Yes he can be counseled for the same offense when it reoccurs. I have counseled my soldiers a couple of times for the same offense, it can be a day apart or months. It's called a pattern of misconduct. If a soldier is negatively counseled, the soldier is made aware of what not to do. Soldier commits the offense again, its a pattern.

It is the counselors and soldiers responsibility to complete the Plan of Action to prevent a reoccurence. If it reoccurs, that is what the Assessment of the Plan of Action is for. All the counselor has to do is mark the Assessment as a failure and then do another counseling sheet.

All of my negative counselings include the violated Article, and that repeat offense could result in Art. 15 with loss of benefits, etc.

Your battle has shown a pattern of misconduct, so his leadership can push for the Article 15.
 
Posts: 169 | Registered: 24 February 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of AutobahnSHO
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You said he didn't get punished the first time- counseling itself is not a punishment. It's documentation of a conversation.


Be Proud of what you do- and do it Well! ~me
 
Posts: 5284 | Location: Ft Gordon (Again!!!) :-| | Registered: 22 October 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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quote:
Originally posted by hardcorpsarmy:
Yes he can be counseled for the same offense when it reoccurs. I have counseled my soldiers a couple of times for the same offense, it can be a day apart or months. It's called a pattern of misconduct. If a soldier is negatively counseled, the soldier is made aware of what not to do. Soldier commits the offense again, its a pattern.

It is the counselors and soldiers responsibility to complete the Plan of Action to prevent a reoccurence. If it reoccurs, that is what the Assessment of the Plan of Action is for. All the counselor has to do is mark the Assessment as a failure and then do another counseling sheet.

All of my negative counselings include the violated Article, and that repeat offense could result in Art. 15 with loss of benefits, etc.

Your battle has shown a pattern of misconduct, so his leadership can push for the Article 15.


Let me clarify: The soldier transported something into theater that he was not supposed to have. Upon discovery it was confiscated and he was counseled about what he did wrong etc. A couple weeks after this, he was counseled the second time for this same event, this time informing him of the impending art-15.
 
Posts: 7 | Location: CONUS | Registered: 12 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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I just received this message from my buddy...

quote:
I
received two counselings, one several days after the other, for the same
exact reason concerning the same event, each suggesting separate
punishments. The original was from my squad leader, immediately following
the event. The second, was also from my squad leader, after he was asked to
change it, recommending me for an Article 15.


I guess, essentially, he received the same counseling twice, for the same event, the first one saying the punishment would be confiscation of his property. It was sent up to the 1SG, who sent it back saying he wanted an Art-15.
 
Posts: 7 | Location: CONUS | Registered: 12 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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This makes me so happy that im part of MARSOC and I dont have to deal with this reguar Army stuff.
 
Posts: 20 | Location: Washington DC / Classified | Registered: 13 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of MattU
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quote:
Originally posted by Broke_11B:
I just received this message from my buddy...

quote:
I
received two counselings, one several days after the other, for the same
exact reason concerning the same event, each suggesting separate
punishments. The original was from my squad leader, immediately following
the event. The second, was also from my squad leader, after he was asked to
change it, recommending me for an Article 15.


I guess, essentially, he received the same counseling twice, for the same event, the first one saying the punishment would be confiscation of his property. It was sent up to the 1SG, who sent it back saying he wanted an Art-15.


As was said, there was no punishment for the initial counseling, so there was nothing against regs there.

I am guessing that the "something" brought into the theater was likely a recording device. Confiscation is the least that could happen. Normally bootlegging comes with fines and/or jail time.

1SG can of course recommend Non-judicial punishment at his/her discretion. There's no beating that one, especially if there was no punishment at the time of the initial counseling. Even then, you'd have a hard time trying to prove that the 1SG cannot punish you on top of any corrective training your first-line might have dispensed.

Your friend was stupid... Twice. He needs to man-up and accept the consequences of his actions.

Matt


CH-47D/F Mechanic
Technical Inspector

AR 670-1/Regulation Mafia
 
Posts: 394 | Location: Camp Humphreys, ROK | Registered: 25 June 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of 11BIN3ID
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quote:
Originally posted by SuperCAG/SEAL Sniper Santos:
This makes me so happy that im part of MARSOC and I dont have to deal with this reguar Army stuff.

Yea, you are with MARSOC, you are a seal and a ranger....and i shot Bin Landen....
 
Posts: 991 | Registered: 12 November 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post

posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 11BIN3ID:
quote:
Originally posted by SuperCAG/SEAL Sniper Santos:
This makes me so happy that im part of MARSOC and I dont have to deal with this reguar Army stuff.

Yea, you are with MARSOC, you are a seal and a ranger....and i shot Bin Landen....


Bullshit. First off, you capitalize SEAL and Ranger. Until you've been through BUDs, Q-course, RIP, and MARSOC training, you haven't earned the right to misspell those hallowed titles.

Second, I know for a fact you didn't shoot bin laden. I was with ST6 that night, I was in the chopper that crashed, luckily I HALO'd out before it went down. i busted through the roof and shot his wife right in her beard.

Don't make bullshit claims if you don't want the real operators to call you out.
 
Posts: 20 | Location: Washington DC / Classified | Registered: 13 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Jesus. What the fuck happened here?
 
Posts: 7 | Location: CONUS | Registered: 12 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Did we ever figure out how to add more moderators so we can boot this clown?
 
Posts: 259 | Registered: 23 December 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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quote:
Did we ever figure out how to add more moderators so we can boot this clown?


Dar,

<deleted, DW>

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Daddy Warcrimes,
 
Posts: 20 | Location: Washington DC / Classified | Registered: 13 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Being a soldier means that you follow command and not question authority. If you want to question authority, you should not be a soldier. You have no rights, the only rights you have is to follow command.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Daddy Warcrimes,
 
Posts: 1 | Registered: 14 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of TheWiseChief
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Now its kathycarol's turn to spam.

Anyway, broke 11B, I believe the 1SG told the SL to simply re-type it so it will have the verbage at the end that shows the SM can receive an Art 15 for the consequences of his actions.

Here is the link that was discussed about it on this website.

http://community.armystudyguid...1093521/m/1111054521

Here is another good link

chemicaldragon.com/yahoo.../daigcounselingguide1.20132429.pdf

Also, I went into my AKO mail and found old negative counseling templates and this was the blurb that had to be added at the end of it. This is probably why the SL had to re-do it. Did your battle ever tell you what was written differently? I believe the below will confirm it.

You are counseled for the above indicated misconduct and/or unsatisfactory duty performance IAW Chapter 1, Paragraph 1-18, AR 635-200. Continued behavior of this kind may result in initiation of separation action to eliminate you from the Army. If you are separated for unsatisfactory performance, you could receive an Honorable or General Discharge. If you are separated for misconduct, you could receive an Honorable, General, or Under Other than Honorable Conditions discharge. A General Discharge, or Discharge Under Other Than Honorable Conditions could severely prejudice you in civilian life. Additionally, a Discharge Under Other Than Honorable Conditions could deprive you of many or all-military benefits. Any further act(s) of misconduct or unsatisfactory performance may cause you to be eliminated without further counseling.
 
Posts: 1902 | Registered: 04 February 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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I appreciate the feedback, Chief. It appears my buddy may have screwed the pooch. From some of the things he's telling me (and I trust that he's telling the truth) his 1SG and CO sound like they're playing some shady games, but so far are "on the level"

"Kathycarol" and "superCAG Santos" should get together and <deleted, DW> and quit shitting in here when I have a simple question.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Daddy Warcrimes,
 
Posts: 7 | Location: CONUS | Registered: 12 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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