Community's Community is an Army Forum    ArmyStudyGuide Community    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  NCO Business  Hop To Forums  Developmental Counseling    Negative Counseling - Double-standard

Closed Topic Closed
Negative Counseling - Double-standard

Hello. I'd like some advice on a problem.

I'm an E-4 and I've been in the army for a little over two years. I've never been given a negative counseling statement; every NCO or civilian supervisor I've ever worked for has told me I'm an exemplary performer. My current NCO calls me the boy scout. That may or may not sound lame, but I DO take pride in doing the right thing. It's part of my job.

That said, I recently went TDY with another NCO whom I don't normally work with - a SFC. From the very first formation of the trip, through each subsequent formation, and very nearly every scheduled class/appointment of the week-long TDY, this NCO arrived anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour late. Most of the instances of tardiness included me due to association - she drove the vehicle and set the formation times. In short, she mis-managed her time very badly, and it made myself and my unit look ate up. We were only on time a handful of instances in the entire week.

Here's the beef. One evening during the trip she tells me to change into PTs and meet her down in the hotel lobby. No time is given. So I change, go to the lobby, and she's not there. I walk ten feet out of the lobby, just outside the doors, so I can keep my soldier-buddy company while he has a smoke. Shortly after, she comes outside, freaks out, gives me a light smoking, and promises to give me a negative counseling for not being at the right place at the right time.

Well, we're back home. The counseling is coming up. I disagree with it completely. I hate to be late to anything and, frankly, a simple trip and a series of mundane tasks turned into a stress and humiliation-filled nightmare, the details of which go beyond my NCO merely being late to everything.

What's with this double-standard, and what should I do?

Should I suck it up, check the box, bullet some remarks, and let it go? What's within my power? What's appropriate?
Posts: 2 | Registered: 01 October 2007Report This Post

Picture of SSG. T
posted Hide Post
It all depends on you. If you feel you aren't being treated fair, run it up the chain of command, that's what it's there for. It's up to you how much of an issue you want to make of it. A counseling statement isn't really that big of a deal, it's just a way to document patterns of performance. If you are truely the outstanding Soldier you say, there should be a multitude of counselings documenting your above standard performance, in turn giving you some fire power to back up your disagreement of the counseling you are to receive. It's all about documentation, all counselings are the same there is no such thing as a negative or a positive counseling, they are all the same there just ways of documenting performance.
Posts: 580 | Registered: 29 January 2007Report This Post

Picture of Medical_SGT
posted Hide Post
Also, remember that you signing the couseling is'nt neccessarily admitting guilt. Signing it, just says your administrative data is accurate. You can sign it, and non concur and write your statement. This might take some "stones" though, as the person giving the counseling will probably be defensive and arguentative. So if you can do, do it and stay calm because EVERYTHING you say will be used against you in this situation.

On the other hand -
Like SGT T said, let it roll bro. As long as the corrective training is'nt excessive, then show up early a few times and it will be over. Dont let this unmotivate you. '

Do better when you get your stripes. Whats funny is , I think initally all of us say what we will or wont do when we get promoted. Once the stripes are given, its just so much easier to go along with the flow and be an ate up self centered leader. Dont be that. Change only comes through action.

Hold your head up troop, hoooah.

Soldiers may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do.
Posts: 174 | Location: FT. Rucker, AL | Registered: 14 November 2006Report This Post

Picture of KSoler
posted Hide Post
Task - Condition - Standard.
Remember those three words.

She said change into PT's (Task). Condition is unnecessary or implied. Meet in the lobby (Standard).

You say she didn't give you a time hack. When in doubt, it is your responsibility to ask. Further, you said it yourself, you left the lobby. It doesn't matter if you went 10 feet or if you walked next door and gambled for an hour and then checked back. You were not in the right place when the right time (which you didn't inquire about) came.

So, while you feel that there is a double standard being applied to you, the simple answer I tell you is that the standard IS being applied to you, and higher ups choose not to apply the same standard to the higher ranking SFC. Whether or not those around you are not living up to the standard does not excuse you from doing so.

So in the future, if a time hack is not given, always inquire to protect yourself, and then check your watch and verify that your watch shows the same time or earlier than your superiors watch so you are never late by their standard.

Sorry to give you an answer you don't want to hear, but it's the truth.

Sgt Soler
Posts: 186 | Registered: 23 September 2007Report This Post

posted Hide Post
Don't be sorry. I'm not fishing for a certain kind of answer. I just want to know what the correct procedure(s) are.

That's a very technical angle. It does make me appear to be at fault.

I submit to you, regardless, that my higher-ups DO hold everyone to a similar standard. It's very wrong that a SFC, a million and one clicks away from my higher-ups, chooses to ignore the standard when she can't be held accountable - in the company of only a handful of lower-enlisted.

Even if they didn't hold this SFC to the same standard, a dutiful soldier would adhere to it anyway. You fulfill your obligations as a part of your unit every time you resist the temptation to take “shortcuts” that might undermine the integrity of the final product.

An honorable soldier would adhere to the same standard.
Honor is a matter of carrying out, acting, and living the values of respect, duty, loyalty, selfless service, integrity and personal courage in everything you do.

A soldier with loyalty and integrity would set a good example for other soldiers. And a respectful soldier should maintain the same standard they set for their comrades.

That's why it's a double-standard. And yes, it is unmotivating.

I'm fortunate that I got the opportunity to consult with my NCOs yesterday. They recommended pretty much the same as SGT Medical and SGT T - not a huge deal, suck it up, keep your head high, don't worry over it too much.

I do appreciate your help and opinions, guys. Thank you. Smiler
Posts: 2 | Registered: 01 October 2007Report This Post

Picture of Sierra711
posted Hide Post
I am glad you took it the right way FLIPPY. Wish I had soldiers like you! I have to repeat myself several times for mine to understand.

I had 2 Neg Counselings when I was an E4 but my standard perfomance clearly showed the kind of soldier I was and still am. Not trying to make me feel better but I was in an E6 position and on my own with no guidance from my NCO. I learned so that when I do become an NCO I know what the right thing is. Do not let one setback make you feel like crap. I am sure you will be a great leader!
Posts: 47 | Registered: 20 September 2007Report This Post

Picture of DoubleDuece
posted Hide Post
Write a memorandum for record and ask your Squad leader to put it in your counseling file. Explain everything that happened and then when they review your record it will be there to refute their claim. Just non concur the statement.

"War is an act of force, and to the application of that force there is no limit. Each of the advisaries forces the hand of the other, and in a recipricol action results in which there can be no limit..."
Carl von Clausewitz, on war, 1833
Posts: 290 | Location: Fort Riley, KS | Registered: 20 May 2004Report This Post

posted Hide Post
I got a new one. I'm an 11B2P and an OC/T. Mainly "T"(Trainer). I am the current NCOIC for my training lane and vary capable of doing so. I have soldier (21B2) who who has recived the rank of SGT, from PVT 1 in 14 months. He has been with my team for over 3 months and does not yet know the POI for a Skill Level 1 task. IMT.... My NCO's and I have been very easy on him for the past 3 months, until now. I gave him a negitive counseling, a very bad one, for not meeting the standards of the team, NCO and OC/T. He has gone behind the teams back, attempted to skip the Chain of Comand (but got caught by my NCOIC)and allied himself with another team. Now, the good part. I gave him a very reasonable "Plan of Action" which he failed. There is a team of SSG's (not on his team/PLT) on his side telling him, that as an E-5, I can not Counsel him as his team leader but nor can I even be his boss. IS THAT SO?all

Posts: 14 | Registered: 05 October 2007Report This Post

Picture of CASPERcass
posted Hide Post
It depends on your chain-of-command. If they have given you the title of NCOIC then you are well within your right to give him on the spot training. Talk to your 1st line supervisor on if you are able to give couselings to other E-5's or if you need another Nco present at the time. Let your soldier know that his actions are affecting your team and continue to hold your ground.

" You can talk about us but you can't talk without us"
Posts: 1 | Registered: 01 November 2010Report This Post

Picture of 35 Series
posted Hide Post
This thread is over three years old. I highly doubt this soldier still needs your guidance in a thread that you dug up from years ago.

I wish people read the timestamps on these ridiculously old threads before they responded.


"an Army Linguist" - Resources and more about being an Army linguist
Posts: 2327 | Location: CONUS | Registered: 30 October 2005Report This Post

posted Hide Post
Actually Counseling give us good result on our problem but Negative Counseling is really affected.
I have available Online Counseling Services.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Daddy Warcrimes,
Posts: 1 | Registered: 12 November 2010Report This Post

posted Hide Post
wow, that was a SPAM I wouldn't of expected. Geez.
Posts: 625 | Registered: 19 July 2007Report This Post
  Powered by Social Strata  

Closed Topic Closed    ArmyStudyGuide Community    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  NCO Business  Hop To Forums  Developmental Counseling    Negative Counseling - Double-standard

Google Site maps Generator Tool