Just a quick question. I have 3 soldiers as a SPC (P). I have no problem connecting and leading 2 of them, but this soldier is defiant and disobedient. It seems that his opinion always takes precedence over mine and his ideas are always better than mine. For instance, I can simply make an on the spot correction and he will spurt out something like, "Nah dawg, it ain't a big deal, relax". And he will do that if im tasking him out to do something, meanwhile my other 2 soldiers (SPC, PVT) gladly listen to what I have said and comply.

Now, I can remain calm and repeat myself once or twice, but the moment I get a little bit of tone in my voice he finds it ok to yell at me, tell ME how its going to be and runs along to find the PLT SGT.

If I try to correct the situation myself he does not comply. I have tried a few approaches with him and tried to "connect" to see what the issue is with him.

I have also sent him to the PLT SGT to resolve this because if he isn't acknowledging me as his leader than I cannot change his mind. But the PLT SGT is somewhat Shielding him and siding with him in my opinion, yet he tells me to handle the situation or I will be removed.

I am a new "NCO" and I admit that I do not know all the answers, but I am trying.

My question is, what should I do next? I've tried what I can without resorting to counseling after counseling, but I think I am going to have to be firm and by the book with this soldier.

My idea is that from now on I will counsel him ever single time this happens, and after I have done it for a few times I will just recommend him for an Article 15. But if I do so, won't it have to go by the PLT SGT who is shielding him?

Where can I find a proper "CORRECTIVE TRAINING" that is applicable for disrespecting an NCO? I don't want him to be out digging a hole for talking back when that had nothing to do with the situation.

Any help will be appreciated, Thank You.

don't waste your time with verbal counselings with someone who talks back and is constantly disrespectful and immature. the best thing to do in this case is to have prepared counseling statements in your acu uniform. watch the video that the army made on how to give a proper counseling statement. the next time he talks back to you, pull him aside, and tell him to meet you at the next available opportunity, and give him the counseling statement. make photocopies of the signed counseling statement, and have the 1sg put it in his ERB. if the 1sg refuses to do so, escalate the situation to your commander. it is your prerogative as an nco to give counseling statements, and that is the main way you can get an unruly individual to start behaving the way they should. once he has multiple written and signed counseling statements for the same behaviour in his file, you can then recommend a more severe disciplinary action be taken, with the advice of the 1sg or the commander.

if it's on paper, it's worth something more than just a verbal counseling statement. it's written proof that the incident occured, as validated by the soldier's signature. he is forced to sign it, even if he disagrees.

Well first I would say that maybe the psg isnt shielding him, maybe he wants to see your resolve and how u react to it, basically a test. By the book you should just put it on paper until u get enough to take that pfc off his chest and make him a private because disrespecting an nco is more then enough to take it all. Thats by the book but honestly what I would do is execise his mind and body more toward his body, everytime he does that mess smoke his a** because either he will get tired of getting dusted off all day or he will continue to disrespect you, and that would be a win win for u because if he stops the problem is solved but if he keeps it up you can take it all and u will have a pt stud in your team. If the psg is really shielding him and wont let the paper work through then u should take it to the 1sgt because your psg is failing his nco's if he wont bust a joe down for disrespecting u.

StephSoldier08,

You state that you have "sent him" to the PSG to resolve the issues you are having with the unruly soldier. I am interpreting this as one of two things:

1) You sent the soldier to the PSG without being present yourself. If you weren't in the room when the PFC was giving his side to the PSG of why he is acting the way he is, he can tell the PSG anything he wants. If you aren't in the room to challenge the PFC, the PSG will automatically side with him because the PSG sees it as if you are avoiding your responsibility by not being present.

2) That you did not seek advice from the PSG about how to deal with the behavior, and have automatically pawned off the unruly soldier on him to deal with, without giving it an effort yourself.

When you approached the soldier, what did he say was the problem? Or did he simply avoid the question by answering one you didn't ask?

One of the hallmarks of achieving effective leadership is finding ways with words to motivate the difficult ones into doing what you need them to do. If you need some help with this, there is no black and white regulation that tells you how to do it step by step. The Army, like many institutions, does not offer effective guidance in dealing with difficult people. I had to seek outside help.

I suggest that you Google "Verbal Judo" and read the book. It was written by a very intelligent English professor with a "cocked tongue" that didn't learn how to deal with difficult people until becoming a cop. His book is so easy to read and so common sense that many police departments make his course required learning. The Army could gain a lot out of it if Verbal Judo was integrated into WLC or BNCOC.

Good luck, keep us posted.

I read a lot of good suggestions here that you would be wise to implement. To reiterate some points, you need to be in the room when the PSG speaks to this soldier...especially when they are speaking about your interactions with him.

Also, you need to start documenting these instances with written counseling for several reasons; they serve as your reminder of what happened for you and the soldier, they force you to think about and discuss the issues in a formal way with a process that includes corrective action, they compel you to follow up on the matter to see what progress was made and they are written record which will absolutely be required in the event that an AR15 is to be pushed.

I have met a lot of NCOs in my career and I can say that I have never met a good NCO that skirted around written counseling of their soldiers (positive and negative). You just make your job harder when you do because you are human and you will forget the good and bad that your soldiers do and that will result in negative traits not getting suppressed and positive ones not getting reinforced.

One more thing, did this soldier know you before you became promotable?

SSGGunbunny:

No, he did not know me before at all. I was in a unit prior to my current one that rotated out, I was left behind to help the new unit replacing us, by training them and/or providing them with any help they needed.

I did exactly what I felt I should do. I counseled him, IAW with regulation. I read the wall-to-wall counseling and took advice from my old NCO. I did everything by the book. I had him come in, have a face to face with me and explained to him that although I am a SPC, I am promotable and I am in a position that requires I account for him. I also gave him a counseling statement for the incident that happened. (this makes the 2nd counseling i've done for him)

This unit I am in DOES NOT do montly professional development counselings. As a matter of fact, I think the counseling I wrote to this PFC was quite possibly the ONLY counseling written in my section since they arrived 5 months ago.

alive_n_kickin:

It's not possible to be present when I pull shift 24 on 24 off some of the time. When I send him myself, I do make sure I am there. But it's the times that they are "chillin" at work and discussing things. I feel that he shouldn't be talking to the PSG about issues regarding he and I unless I know about it, atleast. I will read that book you spoke of. Thank you for telling me about it.

Maybe it's just me, but if I am put into a position, I should either be in that position fully, or not at all. I don't like that I face the wrath when something goes wrong, but If I wanna make an "NCO" decision, it's somehow wrong.

I've just come to realize that this unit I am in will, and will continue to be ran this way. These guys have been allowed to run around like hooligans since they have been together. PFC's "punkin" and "bullying" NCOs and Officers. Then throw in an "outsider" that does things more to the Army standard, and in regards to regulation and that has respect, it makes for a nasty situation.

The PSG actually said "I'm tired of hearing about regulation" to me when I had suggested something one morning.

Im pretty laid back, I don't give orders just to give them. I understand that I am not an E5, but I am an NCO whether it's on my ERB or not. I have to make certain decisions, but on the other side of that, I must also BE ABLE to make such decisions.

To end this thread, I will say that I wrote him a counseling, by the book. I told him that I was there for ANYTHING he needed and if he couldn't come to me, go to SOMEONE. I also wrote that any continued displays of disrespect would find him facing an Article 15 recommendation. HE WAS MOVED TO A DIFFERENT SQUAD THE NEXT DAY.

I find myself in a unit that has no respect. They need to do Sgt's time EVERY WEEK, and conduct classes on Military Customs and Courtesies. The lower enlisted need to be treated as lower enlisted, and should be held to the ARMY STANDARD. They shouldn't be allowed to BLOW UP cpt's and NCO's or even a Major. Yes thats right, a flagged PFC disrespecting a Major and getting away with it.

I think im about to just come down with "short timers disease" and ride out my time.

By the time I leave this unit, I should be a walking regulation. I have to resort to them every second of the day, and thats sad. But I guess that's what regulation is there for.


But thank all of you for your posts.

Hey SPC,

I know it's not easy, but you have to keep trying. It may be very stressful, but you have the right attitude. You want to do whats right and that says a lot. You have to put a stop to the problem before it becomes a standard espeically to younger soldiers. If they see it as ok, they will do it as well.

Every company has their problem child and younger soldiers do see how their behavior affects everyone else. When you stand your ground with those poor soldiers, it makes the good ones think twice. Hopefully you will get your stripes soon and you can make an example out of one these poor soldiers. Make sure they know it is wrong and reward them when they do better than the standard. It will pay off.

And don't forget SPC is a junior NCO. Oh and having another NCO present to back you up or "tag-team" helps a lot too.

quote:

SGT Utley writes: having another NCO present to back you up or "tag-team" helps a lot too.

That isn't working in this unit. What's going on is entirely worse than I originally thought. It's not just your soldier, the entire unit is in need of some "Nanny 911."

Assuming you aren't making this stuff up for our own personal reading pleasure and what you are writing is entirely accurate, there is no question that the unit needs an overhaul. If you want something to be done about it but don't want to take credit/blame yourself, make some phony email account up and send an email message to your battalion commander and battalion CSM. Mention specific examples of defiance. Wait a month, see what happens. If the behavior doesn't improve, do the same at the brigade CSM/commander level, and threaten going to the press if the unit doesn't clean up its act.

What is going on in that unit is going to kill a lot of people in combat if it isn't cleaned up.

SPC,

I feel some of what you are talking about. I feel similar things because I just got promoted a month ago and I have been with most of my PSD team for years. There are a couple guys that I consistently catch flak from, and it seems that the PSG is "shielding" them, however he is not always around either. I have to agree with your actions against this soldier. Counsel him. If that doesn't work, take it higher. As a SPC(P), you do not have the authority to reccommed UCMJ. That is something that NCO's handle.If the PSG will not be an NCO, take it to the 1SG. If he follows a similar pattern of being useless, take it to the CSM. That's why we have an NCO Support Channel. Try not to involve the Officers.....they have Oficer stuff to deal with.

quote:

make some phony email account up and send an email message to your battalion commander and battalion CSM. Mention specific examples of defiance. Wait a month, see what happens. If the behavior doesn't improve, do the same at the brigade CSM/commander level, and threaten going to the press if the unit doesn't clean up its act.

Wow, this is some of the most awful advice I have seen here. Are you an NCO?

Yes he needs to treat you wish respect and follow your orders. The(P) part of all this is an issue throughout the Army as a whole. Promotable is a status, not a rank. You are incharge of him due to your seniority or leadership qualitites or potential. If you are truly in charge of him then 4856. Nice and easy. You should be able to have at least some NCO in your PLT help you with this problem. If not I guess the PLT SGT will have to do something. If not him then request through him to use open door policy with the 1SG. This Soldier of yours seems to have a problem with you and your new authority over them or all authority. Yes, verbal judo works well. As a prior civilian police officer we learned and utilized it often. Now as a Senior NCO, I use it daily. Good luck.

medic75 states, "Wow, this is some of the most awful advice I have seen here. Are you an NCO?"

To answer your question, yes, I am an NCO. Glad you liked my advice *wink*. Since we have a few inactors amongst us today, here goes my logic behind why I advised SS08 as such:

My favorite Army value is PERSONAL COURAGE, followed closely behind is INTEGRITY. Sometimes this requires thinking outside the box, and doing what's right. Failure to act in times of need is NEVER the right answer. This unit's local leadership is turning a blind eye to these problems, because they are a part of the problem. The unit 1SG has standards that allow a company of flagged PFCs to disrespect Majors and Captains. Since many of our leaders in the Army have mixed feelings in regards to whistleblowers, reporting this poor behavior up the chain anonymously might be the only thing to do in this case. The press threat has a high success rate. Officers don't like bad press, especially senior leaders. It's bad politics. If you recall, the tip of the iceberg was the SPC(P) being disrespected. The unit has far worse problems than that. I disagree that officers should not be involved at times like this, because it's clear to me that the enlisted element in this unit is failing to make the right decisions. Some leaders aren't that bright, and need clear guidance as to what "right and wrong" are.

Three months ago, I had a Soldier that I knew was ready for the board. He had performed excellently at the company and battalion Soldier boards, and my 1SG and CSM were asking why he wasn't being sent to the E5 board. In my oversized unit, E-4s are being recommended for promotion simply because they are eligible. If you have ever sat on a promo board in my unit you'd be disillusioned by the caliber of future leaders we have joining the Army these days. Then there's my Soldier, one of the few who showed merit and earned his way there. The local SGM disagreed, and felt the Soldier needed more time as an E4. After traditional means of approaching the SGM failed, I sought the assistance of officers I trusted, and it worked. The SGM was then put on the spot and forced to explain to his rater why he felt my Soldier wasn't ready, and his rater (respectfully) disagreed with the SGM's logic, and my Soldier went to the board. My Soldier PCS'd a paygrade higher, but I am still here, glad that I did the right thing. What kind of leader would I have been if I gave up on him? For what, to kiss the SGMs arse like his other NCOs did? Please. I know I did the right thing by standing up and doing what I knew was right. If anyone reading this has another suggestion that wouldn't have involved the use of officers, please share. I don't like involving officers in enlisted matters but do it when the enlisted make bad decisions.

As a daily reader of Stars and Stripes, I see how an effective use of the press can be. Even the stories that never become stories, once a reporter starts asking for comment in high places about a particular situation, the wheels get turning and the notice about the behavior is addressed at the next Command and Staff meeting. I disagree that the email writer will be caught. Where I work, if the letter writer is smart about it and doesn't brag about it later, I have never seen an instance where he has been discovered. For the most part I disagree with congressionals because they put the Soldier in the spotlight. However, if applied in certain instances, they are very useful.

Real world example of what happens with inactivity: the ABU GHRIAB scandal. It happened as a result of the select few that knew the behavior was wrong but allowed it to continue, instead of reporting it up the chain, anonymously or otherwise.

Now that I've made my logic clear, school me up on yours. A repeat of what hasn't worked in this unit won't earn you any points in this debate either (e.g. "counseling the crap outta the Soldier" or "I guess the PLT SGT will have to do something"), so tell me how you would achieve results in this situation. I could go on and on about why the Army has so many attrition problems. The Air Force, Navy or Marines have far fewer problems keeping in good leadership because the bad ones get out (or get weeded out in training). The reality behind it is, especially now during wartime, that the Army is chock full of questionable leaders and it's up to individuals to be a part of the solution, not further the extent of the problem.

The golden rule in kindergarten that I learned was, "Treat others as you would like to be treated." After training, if leaders would follow that guiding concept that they learned long before they became Soldiers, there would be far fewer high speed SPC(P)s coming down with "short timers" disease.

quote:

My favorite Army value is PERSONAL COURAGE, followed closely behind is INTEGRITY.

And in what way does sending a anonymous email up the chain of command show either one of these values? If anything it is the COMPLETE opposite. It takes no balls, or as you would say "personal courage", to do this and absolutely no integrity. A quick recap of the definition of integrity and personal courage.
Personal Courage:
1. Our ability to FACE fear, danger, or adversity, both physical and moral courage. (Army definition)

Integrity:
1.Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
2. Do what is right, legally and morally.
Be willing to do what is right even when no one is looking. (Army definition)

Explain to me where your advice is both legally and morally sound or shows the ability to FACE this problem. I think the Army very specifically states what the procedures are for going up the chain of command. I don't think they mention anything about being a puss and sending an anonymous email. I could be wrong about that though.

You are comparing Abu Ghraib to this situation? Not sure on your prospective, but torture and prisoner abuse and a PFC disrespecting a SPC are at 2 completely different levels....shit different universes in my book.

This soldier should have the balls to go to his COC, pun intended lol, and have faith that SOMEONE is going to do the right thing. They have open door policies for a reason. Believe me, this issue will eventually get resolved if he does it the RIGHT way. If he is even in the right.

(Edited for bad grammar and the inability to spell LoL)

First off. Couseling is the most sound method the army has. Put it in writting and eventually his packet will be big enough for bigger actions. usualy the rule of thumb is 3 counselings for the same offense should warrant an Article 15. The most important thing in that counseling is to ensure a Plan of action is in place ...a corrective action / training for each offense. Anything from writting an essay to marching him around in D&C for a few hours a day to reporting every hour on the hour in different uniforms at different places. All classic corrective action tactics...useful and effective. Then all that has to be followed up with an Assessment....that bottom portion of the 2nd page of that 4856. This is where you say whether or not the troop has shown improvment and the deficiency has been resolved. If not...then start up a new 4856 with a new corrective action. You don't have to wait until he disrespects again..if he fails in his corrective action...that's disrespect and failure to follow a lawful order. The army can get all kinds of anal when it comes to counselings and charges that will be written up on those article 15s.

the e-mail isn't such a bad idea...just needs a little fine tuning. 1. Don't make it anonymus...that's gutless. Write the e-mail from your governement account to the PLT SGT. Hopefully, he will reply to that same e-mail. Forward that correspondance to the 1SG with your comments and requests....and work your way up the NCO support channel. Try to handle this at the lowest level. Thats why guys say don't get officers involved. "Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties..they will not have to accomplish mine" sound familiar?

Now if the NCOs of this unit are that jacked up ....then use your Chain of command. The platoon leader, Company Commander, Battalion Cdr...etc. If you have noting there....then go to an outside agency...not the press. Go to IG. The Inspector General's job is make sure that everyone else is doing their's. Every post has one and they will follow up. Just make sure that you are prepared to back up all of your claims. Hense the reason for the couselings, the follow up, the assessments, the e-mail chain, etc. This is your proof that you are the only SOB doing what you are supposed to do.


And finally, if every level of the army chain of command and NCO support channel fails you....turn to those 2 joes you have that support you and follow your commands. Those 2 troops can sure as hell make that 1 knuckle head follow through. We all know of stories of that one troop that never showered then all of a sudden was thrown in the shower by a squad of guys to scrub his filthy tail. In no way am I advocating physical violence or blanket parties or anything of the sort...but Soldiers have ways of making other Soldiers follow through.