You would be amazed at the amount of counselings that do not get followed up. I have never had an NCO follow up on my counselings. Oh BTW, on one occasion I had to write my own counseling. I then got chewed by my PSG because the counseling didn't make me look like I walk on water (which I do not and do not think I ever will!). What causes a leader to shirk his resposibilities and then lay the smack down on someone trying to keep his butt out of the fire?
What do you do when the person who is writting you monthly promotion/performance councelings words them in a way that they sound unflattering even when they are not ment that way?
My supervisor has only been writting my coulcelings for two months. He words them in a way that never mentions my good points. He mentions things that I need to work on, but leaves no explaination on why I need to work on them.
Here is an example (not the actual counceling, but close);
SPC X, for you to be considered for the promotion board, you must first work on your PT. You need to pass a record PT test and complete a 12 mile road march.
You are not currently proficiant in your MOS. You must work on your technical proficiancy.
You are NCO material and I would hate to see that potential wasted. ____________________________________________________________________ Doesn't sound very good, does it? In my opinion, promotion councelings should be motivating, not deppressing and vauge.
Now, if I where the NCO writting the counceling it would read someting like this;
SPC X, I realize that you are recovering from injuries sustained during your last PT test, and are currently on permenent profile from those injuries. Keep working hard on getting back in shape and I am sure that you will do well on you next record AFPT.
You have been working outside of your MOS for some time now as Battalion armorer, and you have been doing a wonderful job. However, we need to make sure that you are caught up on the changes that have been going on in your primary MOS.
You are NCO material, and you will be recomended for the promotion board once you meet the above requirments. __________________________________________________________________
When my supervisor gave me the counceling, I informed him that I did not concur. I explained to him that I was not satisfied with the way it was worded. Somehow, he managed to talk me into signing the darned thing. I know I was wrong for signing it, but I was tierd of going back and forth with him.
What should I do the next time? Should I demand that it contain an explanation or no signature? Should I take it to his supervisor and explain my concerns? I am frustrated! I bust my buns for these people, and this is what I get in return. :evil:
Posts: 121 | Location: Ft. Livingroom | Registered: 23 August 2003
Miranda.... I know that this may not be okay to do in some units but it may be worth a try for you. It is my understanding that all counsellings should be reviewed by the next higher NCO. Or that may be my units course. My suggestion is to ask that person to ensure that your supervisor knows how to do a clear and accurate counselling session. When you sign the counselling you are not signing that you agree with the right or wrong of the events but that what was written down was what you discussed in the session.
DS2000... Thank you for your answer. I hope to get counselled soon, I go on mid-tour leave shortly. By the way, does the rank of your rater matter at all in your NCOER? I am a new E5 and my rater is the 1SG.
Posts: 234 | Location: Somewhere out there | Registered: 25 September 2003
Good advice to Miranda,......asking for the next NCO in her NCO support channel to review the counseling. It is not a requirement,......but if Miranda has a problem with the way her NCO makes things sound sorta negative,.....even when it is not a negative counseling,.....she has every right to address these concerns with her first line supervisor or his supervisor if necessary. You were also right when you said that when you sign, "I concur" on a counseling statement,.......it does not mean that you agree with how the counselor said the events took place or anything else on the form,.......except that what is on the form is what you were counselled on,.....nothing else or nothing different. If you wish to tell your side of the story,.......you should sign,....."I concur" then initial,....then write in the blank provided,.....see attached statement from conselee. As for you,.........don't sit around HOPING to recieve your new initial counseling from the 1SG. Plus,.....what duty position have you just moved to that the 1SG is your rater? Just curious. Anyway,....you are supposed to receive your initial counseling within the 1st 30 days of either arriving to a new unit,...section,...or area. ie. whenever your rater changes,.........you are supposed to receive a Change of Rater NCOER from your previous rater (as long as he/she was your rater for a 90 day period or longer),.......and you are supposed to be counseled by your new rater as to your new job description and what your rater expects from you as far as performance. Your rater should also give you examples in each section on the back of your NCOER that show you an example of what you could do or what you need to accomplish to acheive both a SUCCESS or and EXCELLENCE rating on your NCOER in each area. On the bottom front,....in the VALUES portion,......he/she should also provide you with examples or at least ensure that you understand what is expected of you in order for you to receive a YES in each of the values blocks.
Go to your new rater,...(whatever rank he/she may be),....and ask when you will receive your initial counseling from him/her. Sometimes you have to be assertive when it comes to taking care of you and receiving an initial counseling ensures that you know how you will be evaluated on your upcoming NCOER based on what your rater tells you (in writing) in your initial counseling. You can be subtle,...and tactful. Let the 1SG know that you are concerned since you are about to go on mid-tour leave and you would like to have some clear guidance prior to you leaving so that when you get back,.......you will know what needs to be done.
If you need any assistance,.....feel free to PM me.
[color=olive:5f50cea588][/color:5f50cea588]a couple of questions: 1) what is proper action for soldier(s) who have not been counseled every month? back counseling for every month missed, or one counseling that covers the block of time that was missed? this became an issue for me when no clear guidance was given on who was going to counsel a soldier at my unit. months passed before a final decision was made...the sr nco in my shop said he was going to do the soldier's inital counseling and any others that needed to be done until the final decision was made...months passed, the soldier was never counseled, and i asked if i could be his counselor...i got the blessing and i was faced w/this delima...the guidance i received from another sr nco (outside my section) was to do an initial and a block counseling for all months missed. so that's what i did. as a side note to the above, when i was a jr joe, i received back-dated counselings and i didn't completely agree w/it then and don't really agree w/it now...i just want to know if my feeling is right on this. 2) as i mentioned before, i've gone 9 months w/o any sort of counseling (until a couple weeks ago when i got a change of rater) as per your answer, DS2000, you stated that E-6 and below are supposed to be counseled monthly...my unit is practicing quarterly counselings for NCO's...i'm an E-5...the "young" buck 8) anyway, should i press the issue to be counseled for the months missed??? can i tell my new rater that i want to be counseled monthly??? i also would like to know where i can find SMA Tilley's guidance in writing so i can ensure the right thing will be practiced, not only for me, but the few soldiers at my unit.
thanks in advance for your help...i've read everything on this one and i'm learning...THANK YOU.
Posts: 13 | Location: Ft. Benning | Registered: 26 August 2003
The answer to your second question is: An NCO only needs to counseled quarterly. This is written on the NCOER Checklist form. It stats something right along that it is MANDATORY to perform at least quarterly counseling. Like i said earlier this is written in black and white on the NCOER Counseling Checklist form.
Posts: 61 | Location: sucking sand right now | Registered: 22 August 2003
NCO of the year,........yes,......in the Regulation ( both for NCOERs and Leadership reg), it states in black and white that all NCOs must be counseled at a minimum of quarterly. However,......as I previously stated,......the SMA (Tilley) has added to the regulation with his guidance. I will try to find a copy of the e-mail message that he sent out. It was approximately 2000 when it came out, but I'm sure I can get a copy and post it here. Any unit may add too the regulation,...but may not take away from it. For example,.....if your CSM says E-4s and below in your BN will be counseled every two weeks instead of every month,........then that's what needs to happen in your BN. However,.....your BN CSM cannot change the requirement of monthly counselings for all E-4s and below to every other month,......or even quarterly. That would be taking away from the regulation. Understand?
On your question on how to get soldiers up to date on their counselings if they have not been getting counseled for a long time,........you do not have to go back and back date counselings,.....nor should you. You cannot put your name on a counseling statement which covers a certain period of time for a soldier that you were not "technically" responsible for counseling curing that period. What it is best to do is place either a memorandum for record or a DA4856 in the soldiers counseling folder which reflects prior to your becoming the soldiers first line supervisor,....there are no records of any DA4856s being done on the soldier for monthly duty perfromance from____date til_____date. Now that you are the soldiers first line supervisor the soldier will be counseled monthly IAW FM 22-100, Appendix C. You can start a "significant Events" list in the soldiers counseling folder at this time as well. On this tracking sheet you should list any significant activities/ achievements the soldier has participated in or acheived. At this time you can ask the soldier to help you list those things that he/she may have done prior to your taking over his/her counseling. This can be things from volunteering for blood donation,.....to winning a soldier of the month board. It can also be volunteering to teach a class on something to the squad or platoon,....or teaching PMI for a range,.....etc. This list will also be very helpful to you or his next first line supervisor when the soldier gets ready to PCS because then you don't have to pull acheivements out of your ass to write a good award for the soldier. Nor will you be compelled to fabricate acheivements because you have no idea what the soldier did the whole time he/she was in the unit!
Good Luck! I will look for SMA Tilley's e-mail message reference monthly counseling for all E-6s and below. When I find it I will post it here!
Okay... I need to know how this might affect my career. I will be unrated for the first 4-5 months of being a SGT due to many factors. Mainly both of my first 2 "raters" are or have PCSed before the magical 3 months have elapsed. I thought I had been a SGT for 3 months under my first rater but it turned out to be only 2 months and a week so he couldn't submit an NCOER and my next rater is the same story. Will that fact be in any of my records or will it just be a blank space that people will wonder about? Any clarifacation that anyone can give me is greatly appreciated.
Posts: 234 | Location: Somewhere out there | Registered: 25 September 2003
While you're on the counseling subject, I'm a Spc with some leadership expierence, my NCO isn't a real good example because he has short timers disease. Soon when he ETSs i will be in charge of my section, and writing monthly counseling will be part of my duties. Where can i find help on writing counselings for overweight females, and touchy subjects such as that? I understand that some people react differently to things and i really don't want to offend anyone, or put myself in a bad situation. I have had help from other NCOs in my ao, and from my old section chief, I was also given a book that says BE, Know, Do, across the top which has been alot of help. Where else can i find good information on how to deal with these problems?
Check the posts on page one of this thread. Myself and a few other NCOs left a few good places to get assistance/info on counseling. Once you have checked those out,..if you have any additional questions,...please ask. Also,.....check out AR 600-9 to become familiar with the requirements/standards for those soldier who become enrolled in the Army Weight Control Program. Good Luck!
There is a really good book that you can buy at your local clothing and sales store called "The Mentor". The cover is blue and has a lot of NCO rank on it. Inside the book are a few examples of counselings and such. It's been help to me in the past as well as other's that have borrowed the book. If I remember correctly it cost about 12 dollars. It does give specific examples of counselings on PT failures, Overweight, monthly counselings, promotion counselings and reception and integration counselings. It also many more topic areas.
Bottom line is we have soldiers throughout our Army who have not been counseled or properly counseled since day one in their Units, We as NCO's have that responsibility to counsel our soldiers to let them know where they stand both good and bad as a soldier. If we fail to do this, we not only fail them but we fail the CORPS! We cannot let that happen we are the Back Bone of this Army! Without us Officers will have their way! This I cannot let happen. My soldiers are counseled Monthly along with my NCO's. I give them the respect to give them an idea on how they are doing monthly as well. This works for me but not for everyone. My NCO's like being counseled monthly, they tell me its good proffessional development wich we all need in one way or another! We need to come together and make the NCO Corps strong and give the soldiers what they deserve! "Bottom Line" Soldiers are the future leaders in our Army if we fail them now they might (not in all cases) fail their soldiers when they reach our level! Help the Corps and lets do it right! [quote:ec9b4d27e2][/quote:ec9b4d27e2]
Posts: 3 | Location: FT. Lewis | Registered: 22 December 2003