I am a SSG currently in recruiting. In the past I have been counseled no more than 4-5 times in a 18 month period for being late. Most of these times when I was late was after I communicated that I had something going on the morning of but always communicated to my leadership that I was either running late or something along the same. After a almost 6 month break of not being late I came to work 1 hour late even though I worked to almost 9pm the night before and also told my leadership the night before that I needed to pick up my vehicle in the am and might be a little late. Long story short my 1SG is recommending me for a field grade article 15... None of my 4856's have been followed up with as well as all my quarterly counseling is dated for one day. In addition, I leave for a reclassification course in less than 30 days and I feel this is a repercussion of leaving recruiting amongst other factors. Any words of wisdom on how to fight the article 15?

4-5 times? I average at most 1 per year...

Do you still get to talk with JAG after they read it to you??

Instead of accepting the punishment you can request court martial........... (drastic but then the Command must make the decision to go through or drop it. Keep in mind they'll not be nice to you with this option.. I wouldn't count on any favors or help!)

I can understand that however I work on average from 0400 to at least 2000 on a daily basis. Keep in mind that I have a 1.5 hour drive home on a good day because of city traffic and even getting to work sometimes it is very unpredictable. If I request court martial over something like this is it worth the risk of them actually trying to push it forward. My wife has already call the BC when they left me at AM PT with a broken foot to end up driving my self to the ER. Needless to say there are many mitigation factors. ...

No offense but it sounds like you have brought this on yourself. If they have the counseling packet to show a pattern over the last year of you being late then I think you're pretty well screwed. I would talk JAG after they read you and see what your options are but fingers crossed it's just a slap on the wrist and not rank or something. The one tricky part to all of this is the fact that you leave for school in 30 days. Is it TDY enroute or TDY and return? The reason I ask is because they will not let you leave if you are pending UCMJ. If its TDY and return you might be able to get away with it but time is definitely a factor here.

This is going to be TDY and return. Since my counseling packet also includes the fact that my quarterly counseling was all completed the week prior to the due date of my ncoer. Since I didn't back date as they insisted can this and also 4856's which have not been followed up on serve as evidence that my leadership failed me? Or at least give me a leg to stand on in defense? Keep in mind that I have multiple peer and civilian witness statements which support my work ethic and my character.

Many of the senior NCOs in my section; put their appointments on Outlook Calendar and text their supervisor so it proves there was communication. I suggest you speak to a JAG rep as soon as possible.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TheWiseChief,

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Originally posted by nco_ssg:
Since my counseling packet also includes the fact that my quarterly counseling was all completed the week prior to the due date of my ncoer. Since I didn't back date as they insisted can this and also 4856's which have not been followed up on serve as evidence that my leadership failed me? Or at least give me a leg to stand on in defense?

If they try to slam you on your NCOER the fact that they never properly counseled you quarterly could help (couldn't hurt). As far as the no follow-up on the other counseling statements about you being late, I really don't think that will help you at all. Having other NCOs that will speak up for you will definitely help (but may only be useful as far as bringing down the severity of the punishment.) Like WiseChief said, I would call JAG although they may tell you that they can't do anything until you've actually be read. Just out of curiosity since your recruiting, are you anywhere near a base to work with JAG?

Yes I do have a TDS near me on a naval station.

quote:

Originally posted by nco_ssg:
I am a SSG currently in recruiting. In the past I have been counseled no more than 4-5 times in a 18 month period for being late. Most of these times when I was late was after I communicated that I had something going on the morning of but always communicated to my leadership that I was either running late or something along the same. After a almost 6 month break of not being late I came to work 1 hour late even though I worked to almost 9pm the night before and also told my leadership the night before that I needed to pick up my vehicle in the am and might be a little late. Long story short my 1SG is recommending me for a field grade article 15... None of my 4856's have been followed up with as well as all my quarterly counseling is dated for one day. In addition, I leave for a reclassification course in less than 30 days and I feel this is a repercussion of leaving recruiting amongst other factors. Any words of wisdom on how to fight the article 15?

We are both SSGs, if your the NCOIC and your SPC told you "i might be alittle late" and showed up at 1030 (work call 0930), would you consider that "a little late"??? I know I wouldnt...calling to say you are going to be late, does not excuse being late, late is late, yes its good that you called, but you were still late those 4-5 times...

quote:

Originally posted by TheWiseChief:
Many of the senior NCOs in my section; put their appointments on Outlook Calendar and text their supervisor so it proves their was communication. I suggest you speak to a JAG rep as soon as possible.

Thats what I do, not to "prove" anything, more to remind myself about the appt and my OIC so he knows whats up.

To the OP, if you are pending UCMJ, you will be flagged for Adverse Action, which means you cannot go to your school.

I totally agree with you lead by example. In recruiting the work hours are a bit different I leave my home at 330 am to ensure I can beat my hour long plus commute to work and make it on time. This aside with taking applicants back home to events to you name it I regularly do not get home traffic included until 2100hrs if I'm lucky. I would love to have a work call at 0930 sleep deprivation would not play a factor what so ever.

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Since my counseling packet also includes the fact that my quarterly counseling was all completed the week prior to the due date of my ncoer. Since I didn't back date as they insisted can this and also 4856's which have not been followed up on serve as evidence that my leadership failed me

Not having accurate counseling dates on your DA 2166-8 does not either a) invalidate your NCOER or b) does not mean the NCOER can be appealed. Additionally, there is no requirement to have counseling dates marked on the 2166-8, the only requirement is if there are no counseling dates, the Senior Rater must address the lack of counseling in their comments.

There is a requirement in the same DA PAM stating that monthly counseling must be completed on a DA 2166-8-1 and be kept until the NCOER hits HRC, however your CoC CAN (and likely will) do the following if you bring this up: a) state that you were counseled previous times on a DA 4856 through the rating period, and b) your SR Rater can just state that counseling was done on a separate form and s/he noted and reviewed those counseling (this works, I have had to do it in the past).

ref: DA PAM 623-3, Ch 3-5, table 3-3 (bold by me):
NCOER part III: block f—Counseling Dates
Action required: Enter the actual dates of counseling as documented on DA Form 2166–8–1 (YYYYMMDD). When counseling dates are omitted, the senior rater will enter a statement in part V, block e explaining why counseling was not accomplished. The absence of counseling will not be used as the sole basis for an appeal. However, the lack of counseling may be used to help support other claims made in an appeal.

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...my leadership failed me

No offense, and many others here have already hit this on the head as well, but you are a Non-Commissioned Officer and the whole "My leadership failed me" excuse won’t fly, especially when you sated yourself that you have been counseled on the issues in the past. If no one spoke to you about your behavior, and no one counseled you, then you MIGHT be able to get away with it... but even that is a lame excuse because you should know better. I have had plenty of instance where my leadership has been shitty, that doesn’t give me (or my Soldiers) an excuse to half-ass anything.

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Keep in mind that I have a 1.5 hour drive home on a good day because of city traffic and even getting to work sometimes it is very unpredictable

Lastly, why do you live so far away from work? I know there are tons of mitigating factors for this, depending on where your station is, what school districts are around, blah blah blah, but I can see almost NO reason to live so far from my place of duty... Even if you made the CHOICE to live that far away, you cannot use it as an excuse, simply because it was YOUR CHOICE. IM not telling you to move closer, or to uproot your family, I'm just saying that using your own poor decision making as a crutch is not the best way to go about it. If there is a work related reason on why you live so far then I will retract my statement.

Lastly, if you were doing nothing wrong then there is no way they could stomp you down or retaliate... If you were to keep your nose clean then there would be nothing they could do to you. Learn for the future that if you are the one to rock the boat, you need to have the best balance (i.e. if you want to call others out on their issues, ensure you don’t have any yourself).

When it comes to your complaint there isn't much that can be done. If you were in fact late and got permission from your leadership you can show that to your CoC when asking for leniency. If you were given permission to show up late then this will be easy to fight. When bringing up items of mitigation use your late nights and early mornings as a factor as to why you felt that you could take an hour or so to do personal things. You main items of mitigation are the fact that you have been working late hours, and that you informed your CoC who at the time had no issues... DONT use your drive time or your NCOER counseling dates, those can be refuted easily by a halfway competent NCO.

I understand your approach and where I am wrong thank you for the feedback. Regarding why I live so far... The reason is simple. Originally when I PCS'd to my area I was assigned to a specific station. I bought a house and when I was 3 days into inprocessing the unit after doing the full move from the west coast. The command said oh by the way that position went away and that they need to move me. So what would have been a 5 minute commute turned into a minimum of a hour to 2 max commute each way. Just to give you a picture of how my command enviroment is: Broke my foot during AM PT was told by my E7 to walk it off and long story short I drove myself to the ER. In addition, my wife is bilingual and english is not her first language. When 1SG told me that I was spending too much time taking care of my family. She ended up saying it was our problem and that this is America and she needs to speak english. Racial comments within the station continuously streamed my fault is that I never took it up to EO. I am at fault here but not the only one... just dont know how to damage control the whole situation and simply minimize the effect of what is going on and just move on.

Just to be clear taking care of my family is defined as me takeing my wife to the ER when she had a miscarriage for example.

Also I am being recommended for a Field Grade Art 15. Is this not a excessive for the offense?