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Soldier with Permanent 'NO PT Test Run' profile still running
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Picture of LuckyLu
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Thank you all for the comments, advice, etc.

Let me give more of the backstory. This guy is currently in his primary zone for promotion and has had some discipline issues in the past two months or so. He is a smart Soldier and I believe he definitely has the potention to become a Sergeant, however he needs to tighten up shop before I want him joining the NCO Corps.

I am concerned about making him get reevaluated, because if the doctor confirms he should still have the profile, this Soldier may try to say I am biased against him because of his physical condition, and not because of other issues.

To those who have mentioned that the 2.5 mile walk is so hard, why would a Soldier who can run 8 miles in an hour or run a 13 minute 2 mile want to do the walk then?


"America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great." - Eisenhower
 
Posts: 480 | Location: Around the world.... | Registered: 15 August 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of erikwithak86
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Has he done the 2.5 mile walk yet?

Make him do it and I bet that afterwards he'll just ask to be allowed to run the two miles.
 
Posts: 707 | Registered: 18 June 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of TheWiseChief
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Erik,

The first post the OP made stated that his Soldier received the profile about a year or two ago; yet he has a copy of the profile lol.

I think the Soldier in question has taken the walk test before.

I just think this is unnecessary drama in the war zone. The high-speed runner may save the OP's life someday.
 
Posts: 1902 | Registered: 04 February 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of MSG W
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Honestly, it doesn't sound like he's shamming, it seems like he is worried about hurting himself again.

Why go to legal? He is acting within the limits of the profile and is working to get better. That doesn't mean he doesn't hurt and isn't worried that he will hurt himself again.

Honestly? Your actions will probably guarantee that he stops working out.

What is important to you? What is your end state? That he keeps rehabilitating and remains on profile or that his profile is gone? If it is the latter, I'd think you need to re-eval why you are pushing so hard for it.
 
Posts: 403 | Location: Ft. Lewis, WA | Registered: 30 May 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of LuckyLu
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He has done the walk before and he's definitely not anxious to do the run again.

I have a copy of the profile, however I don't keep it in my room which is where I was when I made this post.

So when should this Soldier get off of the profile, after five years? What if the Soldier gets into good enough shape to do a Triathalon but keeps saying his knee hurts. How would that look to you?

It is important to me because if he is able to significantly exceed Army standards for the regular PT test then why isn't he doing it? Also, if all a Soldier has to do is max pushups and situps and then they get a 300, why WOULDN'T I want to stay on the profile as long as possible? I could get a 300 every single time. Is that fair to the people who actually have to run?


"America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great." - Eisenhower
 
Posts: 480 | Location: Around the world.... | Registered: 15 August 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
He has done the walk before and he's definitely not anxious to do the run again.

I have a copy of the profile, however I don't keep it in my room which is where I was when I made this post.

So when should this Soldier get off of the profile, after five years? What if the Soldier gets into good enough shape to do a Triathalon but keeps saying his knee hurts. How would that look to you?

It is important to me because if he is able to significantly exceed Army standards for the regular PT test then why isn't he doing it? Also, if all a Soldier has to do is max pushups and situps and then they get a 300, why WOULDN'T I want to stay on the profile as long as possible? I could get a 300 every single time. Is that fair to the people who actually have to run?


Honestly I dont know you so I will put that disclaimer. But it seems as if this is a personnel vendetta. And has nothing to do with being concerned about this sm well being. You assume since he has a profile hes not supposed to try to improve his self physically with in his own ability. Do you think its unfair that he can run at his own pace quickly? Would it be better if he ran but was extremely slow? But no just because the SM is able to run at a pace that is still a good pace you think its unfair. Would you rather have him become one of those guys who always pull out a profile when its time to do something?

You need to consider doing a gut check and identify what is the real reason you care about this. I also have news for you there are alot of permanent profiles out there who you may see running or walking. What is your pet peeve about the scoring of the event? You seem to bring this 300 score up enough. Do the walking apft yourself and decide if its easier. Then do the swimming.
 
Posts: 625 | Registered: 19 July 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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You state that your soldier is up for promotion. You also stated that “Also, if all a Soldier has to do is max pushups and situps and then they get a 300, why WOULDN'T I want to stay on the profile as long as possible?”

You are mistaken about the possibility of getting 300 points on the PT test. According to the old FM 21-20 and also U.S. Army TC 3-22.20 Army Physical Readiness Training (Supersedes FM 21-20) August 2010 Version. the most a soldier can receive if maxing PU and SU is 200 plus a “GO” for the alternate event.

U.S. Army TC 3-22.20 Army Physical Readiness Training (Supersedes FM 21-20) Paragraph A-40:
A-40. Soldiers on permanent physical profile are given a DA Form 3349. This form annotates exercises and activities suitable for the profiled Soldier. The form also stipulates the events and/or alternate aerobic event the Soldier will do on the APFT. The Soldier must perform all regular APFT events his profile permits. Each Soldier must score a minimum of 60 points on each regular event taken to PASS. The profiled Soldier must complete the alternate aerobic event in a time equal to or less than the one listed in Table A-1. The Soldier must receive a minimum passing score in the alternate event taken to PASS the test. Soldiers profiled for two or more events must take the two-mile run or an alternate aerobic event to PASS the test. Soldiers who cannot perform the 2-mile run or an alternate aerobic event cannot be tested. There is no point score annotated on the DA Form 705 for the performance of alternate aerobic events. These events are scored as a GO or NO GO.
(August 2010 Version)

And for us “old school” soldiers, FM 21-20 Paragraph 14-12:
14-12 Permanent Profiles. A permanently profiled soldier is given a physical training program by the profiling officer using the positive profile form DA 3349 (see Appendix B). The profiling officer gives the unit’s commander a list of physical activities that are suitable for the profiled soldier. He also indicates the events and/or alternate aerobic event that the soldier will do on the APFT. This recommendation, made after consultation with the profiled soldier, should address the soldier’s abilities and preference and the equipment available. (See DA Form 3349, Physical Profile, referenced in AR 40-501.)
The profiled soldier must perform all the regular APFT events his medical profile permits. Each soldier must earn at least 60 points on the regular events to receive a “go.” He must also complete the alternate event in a time equal to or less than the one listed for his age group. For example, a soldier whose profile forbids only running will do the push-up and sit-up events and an alternate aerobic event. He must get at least a minimum passing score on each event to earn a “go” for the test. A soldier whose profile prevents two or more APFT events must complete the 2-mile run or an alternate aerobic event to earn a “go” on the test. Soldiers who cannot do any of the aerobic events due to a profile cannot be tested. Such information will be recorded in their official military record.
The standards for alternate events are listed in Figure 14-9. Scoring for all alternate events is on a go/no go basis. Soldiers who do push-up and sit-up events but who take an alternate aerobic event are not awarded promotion points for APFT performance.

http://www.physicallytrained.com/

All this being said, your soldier is up for promotion. Why not point out to him that if he has his profile changed to where he runs for the APFT, he will be able to earn more promotion points, and that also having the “Physical Fitness Badge” annotated in his 201 File will make him look “high speed” to the Command, and whoever else reads his promotion packet?

Tell him that you are concerned about his profile because you don’t want other soldiers to be getting the wrong idea about him…


quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
NCOs,

I have a Soldier who received a permanent profile a year or two ago and at the time he was having knee pain issues. Over the last two years he has successfully rehabilitated and is now running more than most other guys in my section. He has made some posts on Facebook about him running eight miles in an hour, running a 13:15 two mile, and other impressive accomplishments.

I don't have any reason to doubt he's done these things, but my question is, what can I do to get him off of his profile? He has told me he wants to wait longer to see if his knees are truly healed, but I think at this point he's just holding on to the profile so he doesn't have to run the PT test.

What are my options?
 
Posts: 5 | Registered: 31 July 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of LuckyLu
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King,

I never assumed that because he has a profile he shouldn't be bettering himself. I thought about this earlier today and I put myself in his shoes. If I was able to do what he was doing, I would go get myself reevaluated. I've had knee issues myself and if my knee was hurting I sure as hell wouldn't be running eight miles.

Do I think it's unfair? No, why would I? He has worked his butt off.

What does it matter if he ran, but was slow? I'm not sure where you are going with this. He has run for distance AND speed.

Would I rather him pull his profile when its time to do something? I believe that might now be happening. We aren't doing formation runs here, but when we get back is he going to pull the 'my knee hurts' card even though the week prior he was running eight miles?

What is my pet peeve? Well, I've done the walking PT test a few times and in my opinion it's ALWAYS been easier than the run. Just to jog my memory, I will do the walk tomorrow. Last time I checked you don't get scored on how fast you walk, just that you complete it.

What happens when this guy becomes an NCO and has Soldiers? He's going to be running and running on his own, but when it comes time for him to do the PT test he's gonna be walking. His Soldiers who have also been running are going to look at him and wonder why he gets to do the run and they don't. They are going to see how he gets a 300 by maxing PU/SUs and doing a walk, while they have to ACTUALLY max the events.


"America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great." - Eisenhower
 
Posts: 480 | Location: Around the world.... | Registered: 15 August 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of TheWiseChief
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The 300 only comes into play for promotion points.

Also, do not frown on someone who received a profile for their condition and then say you experience pain as well. You have the opportunity to get yourself evaluated. Not all of us choose to seek medical attention but for your personal benefit, it is best to get every medical issue looked at and documented.

When I got my leg hurt in Iraq and was given a profile for it and then had my leg cut up in three places, the manner that I coordinated PT with my "healthy" Soldiers was to bike while they ran, do sprints, fartlek, intervals, indoor treadmill, low-impact elliptical, etc. The point is that a broke leader can effectively conduct PT with his section. I have accomplished this both as an NCO and Officer. I am 20 years older than most of my Soldiers but can still do more PU/SUs than them on their scale. Soldiers may still gripe (which they will do regardless) but at the end of the day, what is important, is that my supervisor is content with the manner that things that are happening.

How is this Soldier overall? Is he a good performer at his job? Professional? Motivated? Discipline? Good conduct?
 
Posts: 1902 | Registered: 04 February 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Chapter 14-13 Alternate Events of FM 21-20 has the time requirements you have to meet to get a go on the walk, and also the standards of the walk (one foot on ground at all times, etc.).

And according to TC 3-22.20 Appendix A – Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) no mp3 players, CD's, or radios.

A-5. Any piece of clothing not prescribed as a component of the IPFU, ACU or commander authorized civilian attire is not permitted for wear during the APFT. Neither are devices or equipment that offer any potential for unfair advantage during testing. Unless prescribed as part of the Soldier’s medical profile, the wearing of the following items are not authorized: nasal strips, weight lifting gloves, back braces, elastic bandages, or braces. Electronic devices are also not authorized (MP3 players, radios, cell phones, and compact disc players). AR 670-1, Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia, specifies the components of the IPFU ensemble.

Good luck. IMO the walk is harder.


quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
King,

I never assumed that because he has a profile he shouldn't be bettering himself. I thought about this earlier today and I put myself in his shoes. If I was able to do what he was doing, I would go get myself reevaluated. I've had knee issues myself and if my knee was hurting I sure as hell wouldn't be running eight miles.

Do I think it's unfair? No, why would I? He has worked his butt off.

What does it matter if he ran, but was slow? I'm not sure where you are going with this. He has run for distance AND speed.

Would I rather him pull his profile when its time to do something? I believe that might now be happening. We aren't doing formation runs here, but when we get back is he going to pull the 'my knee hurts' card even though the week prior he was running eight miles?

What is my pet peeve? Well, I've done the walking PT test a few times and in my opinion it's ALWAYS been easier than the run. Just to jog my memory, I will do the walk tomorrow. Last time I checked you don't get scored on how fast you walk, just that you complete it.

What happens when this guy becomes an NCO and has Soldiers? He's going to be running and running on his own, but when it comes time for him to do the PT test he's gonna be walking. His Soldiers who have also been running are going to look at him and wonder why he gets to do the run and they don't. They are going to see how he gets a 300 by maxing PU/SUs and doing a walk, while they have to ACTUALLY max the events.
 
Posts: 5 | Registered: 31 July 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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There is no possibility of getting 300 points on the PT test. According to the old FM 21-20 and also U.S. Army TC 3-22.20 Army Physical Readiness Training (Supersedes FM 21-20) August 2010 Version. the most a soldier can receive if maxing PU and SU is 200 plus a “GO” for the alternate event.

U.S. Army TC 3-22.20 Army Physical Readiness Training (Supersedes FM 21-20) Paragraph A-40:
A-40. Soldiers on permanent physical profile are given a DA Form 3349. This form annotates exercises and activities suitable for the profiled Soldier. The form also stipulates the events and/or alternate aerobic event the Soldier will do on the APFT. The Soldier must perform all regular APFT events his profile permits. Each Soldier must score a minimum of 60 points on each regular event taken to PASS. The profiled Soldier must complete the alternate aerobic event in a time equal to or less than the one listed in Table A-1. The Soldier must receive a minimum passing score in the alternate event taken to PASS the test. Soldiers profiled for two or more events must take the two-mile run or an alternate aerobic event to PASS the test. Soldiers who cannot perform the 2-mile run or an alternate aerobic event cannot be tested. There is no point score annotated on the DA Form 705 for the performance of alternate aerobic events. These events are scored as a GO or NO GO.
(August 2010 Version)

And for us “old school” soldiers, FM 21-20 Paragraph 14-12:
14-12 Permanent Profiles. A permanently profiled soldier is given a physical training program by the profiling officer using the positive profile form DA 3349 (see Appendix B). The profiling officer gives the unit’s commander a list of physical activities that are suitable for the profiled soldier. He also indicates the events and/or alternate aerobic event that the soldier will do on the APFT. This recommendation, made after consultation with the profiled soldier, should address the soldier’s abilities and preference and the equipment available. (See DA Form 3349, Physical Profile, referenced in AR 40-501.)
The profiled soldier must perform all the regular APFT events his medical profile permits. Each soldier must earn at least 60 points on the regular events to receive a “go.” He must also complete the alternate event in a time equal to or less than the one listed for his age group. For example, a soldier whose profile forbids only running will do the push-up and sit-up events and an alternate aerobic event. He must get at least a minimum passing score on each event to earn a “go” for the test. A soldier whose profile prevents two or more APFT events must complete the 2-mile run or an alternate aerobic event to earn a “go” on the test. Soldiers who cannot do any of the aerobic events due to a profile cannot be tested. Such information will be recorded in their official military record.
The standards for alternate events are listed in Figure 14-9. Scoring for all alternate events is on a go/no go basis. Soldiers who do push-up and sit-up events but who take an alternate aerobic event are not awarded promotion points for APFT performance.

http://www.physicallytrained.com/
 
Posts: 5 | Registered: 31 July 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of LuckyLu
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Chief,

The 300 does come into play for promotion points, which I think makes it important to get him back into the run. He is going to be potentially getting more points than the guys running next to him.

When I started getting my knee pain I got a profile. I was used to running approximately 20 miles a week and I had to drop it to about three. It was mentally hard to drop down to that, but that's what I did to recover.

This Soldier is good at his job, however my team Sergeant and I had to counsel him today on why we aren't sending him to the board even though he's been in his primary for months. He's had numerous counselings in the last few months for discipline issues, so overall he needs to fix somethings.

Mad Max,

I will do the walk tomorrow for PT and report back. It's been awhile since I've done it, but in all honesty from what I remember it wasn't as hard as I remember my runs being. My shins hurt, yes. My lungs, not at all.

Oh, and by the way, FM 21-20 was replaced by TC 3-22.20, which was just replaced by FM 7-22 last year I believe.


"America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great." - Eisenhower
 
Posts: 480 | Location: Around the world.... | Registered: 15 August 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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LuckyLu,

Thank you for letting me know the name of the new FM. I learned something. :-) I'll have to download it when I get a chance.

Lol. Given a choice, I'd rather have hurting shins than hurting lungs any day. Of course 800mg of Motrin right before the test helps too...

Good luck with your Soldier. I hope that he corrects his mistakes and learns from them.
 
Posts: 5 | Registered: 31 July 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of erikwithak86
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Max,

As far as promotion points are concerned, you need to read AR 600-8-19, not the PT FM. The 60 points for each waived event only counts for push-ups and sit-ups.

Paragraph 3-42 Military Training
b. Physical fitness tests
(1) Permanent profiles
(a) Those Soldiers with permanent physical profiles for the sit-up and/or push-ups events will be granted 60 points for each event waived and use the actual score for each event taken and must qualify on the 2–mile run or approved alternate test according to FM 21–20.
(b) Effective 1 April 1995, Soldiers taking an alternate event for the 2–mile run and receiving a passing score receive a score for that event equal to the average of the scores for the other two events.

This has not changed even with the new point system.
 
Posts: 707 | Registered: 18 June 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of LuckyLu
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Did a mock walk PT test tonight..

71 Pushups
70 Situps
34:31 walk

I can honestly say for me the walk was EXTREMELY easy. Not once did I feel out of breath, nor did I really have any pain in my legs. If I had the option of doing the walk or run I would pick the walk every single time.

I am not a Super Soldier running 13 minute two miles, I probably average a 1430 or so and I'm usually pretty good with the other two events.


"America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great." - Eisenhower
 
Posts: 480 | Location: Around the world.... | Registered: 15 August 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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