Looks like I'm a little late to this topic. I don't know how much time you have left, but if it's more than a couple years, I'd advise you to reconsider.

First of all, being an E-5 is a good thing. Going up through the ranks is like life. When you're a PVT, that's like being a kid. There's a lot to learn. SPC is like a teenager. You're older and more mature, but you're still too young to do the cool stuff in life that young adults can do. The ranks are the same way.

For starters, think about all those times when they're looking for a detail. If you're wearing the stripes, they might put you in charge of the detail instead of having you doing the labor. If you hang on to SPC too long, you're going to get younger joes coming up under you passing you up. You're DOING the detail, and he's IN CHARGE OF that detail, giving you instructions. This process puts you behind the power curve, not only in the ranks, but in life, too.

If you're close to ETS'ing, I'm pretty sure you've been asked 100 times, "Whatcha gonna do when you get out?" That's a very valid question. Unless you've got some serious connections, the civilian market can be a beast. What does your civilian education look like? An E-4 getting out with no degree just says to potential employers, 'Put me at the low end of the labor force', meaning flipping burgers and sweeping floors. Now, getting out as an E-5, with some higher education says you're at least management material.

I'm not trying to throw scare tactics at you or anything. This is just something to think about while you wait to get out.

Being an E-5 isn't difficult. Can you lead a small group of Soldiers (basic soldiering, i.e. PT, Sgt's Time Training)? Can you make decisions for the good of that group? Basic problem solving? Everything we do in the military has a manual on how to do what. Can you read a manual? Can you relay the PSG's guidance? I'm sure the answer's YES to all of these.

I was one of those 'ride it out' E-4's, until I wised up. I wish I'd wised up sooner. Maybe I'd be an SFC by now, instead of taking orders from younger SFC's.

Now, if your mind is completely made up already, then don't worry about any of this...except the getting out part. Do-overs are a lot tougher these days. Good luck.

This next reply/ answer/ advise might be a little off-topic
to your original question but it is some-what related to
your issue and I'd like to elaborate on it:

One of my biggest pet-peeves while I was
in the Army that would piss me off to no end
(and one that you've probably have already seen for yourself)
is seeing E-5's and other NCO's putting E-4/SPC in charge of troops.

More specifically...
have SP4's putting E3s and below
at "parade rest" and/or smoking soldiers.

??????? WTF!! ???????

(Note:
In my time in the Army, I NEVER put up with or tolerated that when I was Pvt/ PFC.
I would tell those over-zealous E4/ Spc to go f**k themselves.
And when the E5/ E6 would get pissed off... I would say "they are NOT NCOs".

And, yeah...
ol' sgt. so-and-so would get real pissed off at my attitude...
and sometimes I would get yelled out or smoked by the E5 or E6...
but never once did I get a 4856 councelling statement or an Article 15
for telling off or otherwise "disrespecting" an E4 Spc...
and I'll let you connect the dots as to why that was).


To all of you lazy, sh**-bag NCO's who are doing this:

With the some-what rare exception of E-4/ CPL's (who ARE NCO's)
as well as SOME cases of CQ, staff duty and/or other
"formal" duties/details:

E-4/ SPC ARE NOT NCO'S AND SHOULD NEVER BE PLACED IN CHARGE OF
TO TRAIN AND/OR HAVE AUTHORITY OVER OTHER JUNIOR ENLISTED SOLDIERS
UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES (ESPECIALLY FOR TRAINING/ SUPERVISING!!).

Yeah...
I know what you dirt-bag NCO's are thinking:

"Well... when I was in the Army we had the SPC-4 Mafia
and I had to stand at parade rest for and get smoked by
E4-SPC and I had to otherwise suck their d**k so now other
E-3's and below should do it... blah... blah... blah".

GET THE F**K OUT OF MY FACE WITH THAT WEAK BULLSH**!!

And for you lowlife NCO's who dont like my attitude:

Are SPC-4's included in the NCO Creed?? NO!!

Is there an Article under the Uniformed Code of Militarty Justice
that covers so-called disrespect/ disobeying the so-called
"SPC-4 mafia" and/or other junior enlisted / NON-NCOs??

NO... THERE ISN'T!!

Why do you think that is??

Apparently...
whatever group of people who put together the US Army, UCMJ
and the military in general knew that there was (and is) a vast difference
between personel who are leaders and those lower-enlisted who are not and that
there needed to be a series of checks and balances put in place to enforce
good order and discipline (which is imparitive to any military)...
but also to make sure that authority is not abused by those who either try
to take advantage of those in lesser ranks and/or by those who are
in leadership positions who simply do not want to do their jobs/ duty.

These same people were also aware that there are some people
who may want to serve... but do not wish to lead
(and there is NOTHING wrong with that!!).

Again...
Why put some one in a Ldrship position
who does not which to be there??

Not everyone who joins the military wants to lead...
so these idiot, so-called NCO's need to seriously step off!!

To all of you E4 SPC's reading this and getting pissed off:

You wanna lead troops and get that so-called "respect"??...
get your @$$ up and go to PLDC / WLC and EARN the right
and privledge to be formally recognized as a leader
as well as the privlege to lead/ train troops.

(and the key word here is PRIVLEDGE!!).

For all of you lazy-@$$ NCO's who are reading this
and getting even more pissed off by me calling you out
on your bullsh**:

Leadership / Authority/ Responsibility and the care, welfare & training
as well as the educating & discipling of troops IS NOT
to be passed of to the lowest common demoninator:

You do not see Company Cmndrs tell their LTs to go tell
the 1SGT to go tell the PLT Sgt to go tell the E-6 squad leader
to tell the E5 team leader to go tell the SP4 to tell the E3's
and below on how that the E4's are in charge of sweeping a floor.

Why??.... because that is not his/ her job.

The CO gives the order, the lower enlisted carry it out...
and the NCO's train & supervise and make sure it gets done...
NOT piss-ant E4/ spc who are nothing more than glorified PFC's
who dont know what they are doing or what they are talking about.

You ALSO do not see a Company or Battalion Cmdr
doing the job of an E-5... now do you??

With that being said...
why would you have an E4 do a job
that is the duty AND THE OBLIGATION
of an E5 or above??

The answer to that question is simple...
and this is were this all ties into your
original question / topic:

NCOs are lazy and dont want to do their jobs...
That's why they place SPC-4's "in charge"
and/ or pressure/ bully them to become E-5's:

1) They want the rank and privledge...
but do not want the responsiblilty that is
inherently invested in them.

2) But still want to be able to put on their
bullsh** NCOER's that they "trained and lead troops".

(Hint:
This is why your NCO is getting pissed
that you dont want to be an NCO:

1) He doesnt want to do it.

2) And more to the point...
by refusing to be an E5 you are essentially depriving him
of being able to put on his BS NCOER that he "trained & mentored" troops
when in fact he never did... thus preventing (or at least hindering)
him from getting promoted to the next NCO rank.

3) Many of these so-called NCOs have mandatory child support payments
and other stupid drama that they got going on in their pathetic lives
which is why they are in "such a hurry" and "cant wait" to make
the next E-grade. Why do you think that is?? See above.

(Though they will never admit any of that to you.
Funny how that works, huh?? .

If that be the case, I say:

Either laterally promote that E4 in question to CPL
if they want that formal resposibility.

Or...

Include Spc4 into the NCO Corps
(which will NEVER happen for obvious reasons)...

or...

demote those E5s and E6s back down to E4 and below
for dereliction of duty and shirking their duties...
since they are acting like SPC and PVTs with NCO stripes.

In short, my question / personal challenge is this:

Do you really mean it when you say you want
to lead, train and mentor troops...

... or are you looking for a slick, convenient way
to shirk and short-change your duties
and collect a welfare check??

Dont get me wrong, Not all are like this.

Some are, in fact, great NCO's...
but there are some posers out there
using their NCO rank as a crutch...

...And when you got an NCO constantly have E4's do their jobs for them
and/or are constantly trying to pressure troops into getting promoted
to E5 (who do not wish to do so) to have them do the job they dont want to do...
that is a very good indication of the kind of lazy, lowlife you are dealing with.

holy crap....

777.......

you mad bro?

He must have gotten kicked out. Don't bully a forum to hash out your anger.

Strong 2nd post.

@A Non EMoose, ignore 777, that's my first piece of advice.

I'll give it to you straight, if you do not want to be an NCO you don't have to be. Even if your NCO forces you to go to the promotion board, just tell the board members you do not want to be an NCO. I can assure you they will not recommend you for promtion. Even with you being in a star MOS you will likely not automatically be promoted to Sergeant as every Specialist in your MOS who has been to the board, will be automatically promoted before you and as far as I know you have to at least have promotable status before you even come up on the radar for automatic promotion.

It sounds like you have a plan, so continue on toward YOUR goal. The Army is just a chapter in your life, not the entire book. I think some of us "seasoned" Soldiers forget that. I remind myself regularly that when it all boils down, despite what anyone says, the Army is just a job. It's a demanding job, and it does require some lifestyle adjustments, but all in all it pays the bills. I'm sure you NCO probably feels you should aspire for greater rank and responsibility but you're an adult, and the master of your own destiny. However, I think your NCO feels he has your best interest at heart, and his intentions are good.

What happens when those Officers and NCOs are suddenly out of the equation?

https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/nuAWqb7gI7g

https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/xuQZJHfWf9U


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1gstYyZF5A <--start at 8:20

I have had outstanding Specialists as team leaders and Squad Leaders (I was once an E-4 Squad Leader) and those individuals have certainly earned the respect in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by SSG. T:
@A Non EMoose, ignore 777, that's my first piece of advice.

I'll give it to you straight, if you do not want to be an NCO you don't have to be. Even if your NCO forces you to go to the promotion board, just tell the board members you do not want to be an NCO. I can assure you they will not recommend you for promtion. Even with you being in a star MOS you will likely not automatically be promoted to Sergeant as every Specialist in your MOS who has been to the board, will be automatically promoted before you and as far as I know you have to at least have promotable status before you even come up on the radar for automatic promotion.

It sounds like you have a plan, so continue on toward YOUR goal. The Army is just a chapter in your life, not the entire book. I think some of us "seasoned" Soldiers forget that. I remind myself regularly that when it all boils down, despite what anyone says, the Army is just a job. It's a demanding job, and it does require some lifestyle adjustments, but all in all it pays the bills. I'm sure you NCO probably feels you should aspire for greater rank and responsibility but you're an adult, and the master of your own destiny. However, I think your NCO feels he has your best interest at heart, and his intentions are good.

The Soldier can pick up promotable status through Command List Integration (CLI) where they never have to have been to a board, and if they are a STAR MOS that month they are promoted if not flagged and PT and weapons quals are up to date. Seen this scenario happen 3X for 68V which usually is a STAR MOS.

quote:

Originally posted by Corvette1140:

quote:

Originally posted by SSG. T:
@A Non EMoose, ignore 777, that's my first piece of advice.

I'll give it to you straight, if you do not want to be an NCO you don't have to be. Even if your NCO forces you to go to the promotion board, just tell the board members you do not want to be an NCO. I can assure you they will not recommend you for promtion. Even with you being in a star MOS you will likely not automatically be promoted to Sergeant as every Specialist in your MOS who has been to the board, will be automatically promoted before you and as far as I know you have to at least have promotable status before you even come up on the radar for automatic promotion.

It sounds like you have a plan, so continue on toward YOUR goal. The Army is just a chapter in your life, not the entire book. I think some of us "seasoned" Soldiers forget that. I remind myself regularly that when it all boils down, despite what anyone says, the Army is just a job. It's a demanding job, and it does require some lifestyle adjustments, but all in all it pays the bills. I'm sure you NCO probably feels you should aspire for greater rank and responsibility but you're an adult, and the master of your own destiny. However, I think your NCO feels he has your best interest at heart, and his intentions are good.

The Soldier can pick up promotable status through Command List Integration (CLI) where they never have to have been to a board, and if they are a STAR MOS that month they are promoted if not flagged and PT and weapons quals are up to date. Seen this scenario happen 3X for 68V which usually is a STAR MOS.

True indeed, forgive the misinformation I didn't intend to steer the young lad wrong, I based my post on the assumption there are enough boarded Soldiers in his MOS to keep him under the radar; Rule #1. Never assume. @A Non EMoose, Corvetter1140 is 100% correct.

I thought they did away wuth CLI.

quote:

Originally posted by bigrob69:
He must have gotten kicked out.
Don't bully a forum to hash out your anger.

Sure hate to rain on your
parade there, hard-core ranger...
but I ETS'd honorably (as an E5, btw).

Overall, it was an okay experience but glad it is behind me now...
as it wasn't exactly my cup of tea and (for the most part)
I dont miss it (Yeah... I said it).

I got out because I COULD get out...
unlike alot of other NCO's who had
manditory child support payments to make
or who otherwise couldn't cut it on the outside.

And that was a pretty long-winded rant...
but one of my biggest dislikes was seeing NCO's trying to goad, pressure
or manipulate lower-enlisted soldiers into leadership positions they did not
want to be in... especially when it was done under the guise of so-called
"leadership" and/or "personal development" when they really just wanted
someone to step in & do the sh*tjobs they didnt want to do.

NCOs (of all people) need to knock that sh*t off and stop intentionally
BS'ing and misleading troops and/or what they think the soldier in question
wants to hear and start informing the naive soldiers are in for
that way the trooper can make a well-informed decision.

(A little off topic...
I once saw a Cav Scout NCO at Ft. Stewart
throw a conniption fit because he "gasp!!"
had to take it upon himself to fill a printer with paper,
stating that he DID NOT like to do "private work".

Yeah, I know... real heavy, sh**, right, sgt??.

You mainly see this kind of bullsh*t attitude
from NCO's in the combat arms MOS's...
thought it could be seen anywhere).

So, yes...
being an NCO may have its so-called "privleges"...
but a lot of heat, BS and other obligations
and responsibilities DO come with the job...

(One example...
getting a phone call in the middle of the night
because one of your soldiers got a dui and you and/or
your 1Sgt gotta go pick him/her up from the MP station.
Ever see an E4 or below get those "calls"??
Take a wild guess why that is)

...and a potential/ aspiring soldier needs
to be made aware of that before they make
that kind of commitment.

777,

Yes, the experiences you describe do happen but for every NCO that has pulled this card, I can write about ten-fold of stories of NCOs that lead from the front, will take the shirt off their backs to help their Soldiers. I have given Soldiers money to help them out of a jam. Sometimes, it was a loan and the other a gift. I received that call at 3am to find a drunk married Soldier doing the wrong thing in the barracks.

The money thing is not in the NCO code book to do.

But I think you have gotten off a little-bit off topic from the OPs main concern.

quote:

Originally posted by 777:
E-4/ SPC ARE NOT NCO'S AND SHOULD NEVER BE PLACED IN CHARGE OF
TO TRAIN AND/OR HAVE AUTHORITY OVER OTHER JUNIOR ENLISTED SOLDIERS
UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES (ESPECIALLY FOR TRAINING/ SUPERVISING!!).


......

Is there an Article under the Uniformed Code of Militarty Justice
that covers so-called disrespect/ disobeying the so-called
"SPC-4 mafia" and/or other junior enlisted / NON-NCOs??

NO... THERE ISN'T!!

WROOOOOONG.

AR 600-20

4–2. Obedience to orders
All persons in the military Service are required to strictly obey and promptly execute the legal orders of their lawful seniors.

4–3. Military courtesy
a. Courtesy among members of the Armed Forces is vital to maintain military discipline. Respect to seniors will be extended at all times (see AR 600–25, chap 4).

[/QUOTE]

WROOOOOONG.

AR 600-20

4–2. Obedience to orders
All persons in the military Service are required to strictly obey
and promptly execute the legal orders of their lawful seniors.

4–3. Military courtesy
a. Courtesy among members of the Armed Forces is vital to maintain military discipline.
Respect to seniors will be extended at all times (see AR 600–25, chap 4).[/QUOTE]



Again, sure hate to disappoint you, AutobahnSHO...
but I didn't exactly just graduate from AIT and march across Barton Field...
so knock it off with your BS already because everyone here knows your full of sh**.


That "reg" you just quoted simply serves a blanket / umbrella / catch-all
that enforces & ensures basic military dignity and respect that is
EXTENDED AND DUE TO ALL service members... regardless of rank.

And (more importantly)...
protects service members from over-zealous, control freak superiors
who are on a power trip and who ultimately kill unit morale and cohesion.

In short, that reg simple serves as a series of checks & balances...
as is the purpose of any other regulation.

Catch my drift?? In other words...
use some common sense, guy.


And no...
E4/ Spc's have practically little
to no authority over PFC's and below as:

1) Spc / E4's (with the ONLY exception of Cpl's)
are NOT nco's and are NOT included in the Corp of Noncommissioned Officers
as they themselves are still junior soldiers themselves (duh, no sh**!!)
Why do you think that is??...


2) Because they are little more than glorified Pvt's.


3) More to the point...
do you really think that a Spc with a whopping (gasp!!) 18-24 months time in service
(and MAYBE 6 months time in grade) has enough experience / maturity to lead troops??
Of course, they don't... that's why formal leadership is reserved ONLY for NCO's
and Spc / E-4's are NOT recognized as formal / legal leaders of soldiers.


Don't believe me??...
Think I don't now what I am talking about??

Here's an idea...
work up enough nerve and bark orders at a random PFC and below
and have them tell you to f**k off (I know I would) and then try recommending them
for an Art 15 for disobedience or disrespect to a Spc-4 and see watch what happens:

The 1sgt and Co are going to laugh in your face and tell you to get lost (if it even made it that far)...
and if I was that SNCO / CO... I would personally recommend you for a Field Grade Art 15
for attempting to mislead, misinform and/ or abuse, manipulate or haze troops...

or as I would prefer to handle the situation...

"There @in't no rank behind the t@nk"...

In other words...
pull that weak, "Spc-4 mafia" Bullsh**
with me and I'll knock your fkn @$$ out.

And then when you went crying
to your 1Sgt / CO about what I did to you...

I'd just say...
"hey, it's not my fault... he should've ducked".
Then I'd REALLY give you a reason for the CO
to take my rank, ginger boy.


Also... I must ask:

Is there a reason why in the world that you're trying to flex regulations
on me when you're sporting (of all things)... the signal corps emblem??
Seriously??

Gee... let me guess??
You're one of those "proud" types... aren't you??

I reckon Ft. Bragg has nothing on Ft. Gordon
for it's ultra elite commando units that technically don't exist.

delta force compound??.... robin sage??... Hell No!!!!

FORT GORDON!!!... Home of the Spc-4 Mafia!! xD

I mean...
I almost challenged you to an arm-wrestling match..
but once I saw that mighty signal corps emblem...
Oh, sh**!!... I thought you might rip my effin arm off!! xD

Ain't that right, AutobahnSHO ??