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APFT policy and possible reduction???
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posted
I have been racking my brain for pretty much a month here at the MOB site before we leave. I am the APFT OIC and have been looking for the correct answers to these questions... Here are the regs and info I have.... questions will follow...

The records of soldiers who fail a record APFT for the first time and those who fail to take the APFT within the required period (AR 350-15, paragraph 11) must be flagged IAW AR
600-8-2 (Reference B). (FM 21-20 pg 14-11)

(2) Commanders may administer the APFT as often as they wish; however, they must specify beforehand when the results are for record. The AA and Active Guard/Reserve (AGR) Soldiers and USAR Troop Program Units (TPUs) will take the APFT at least twice each calendar year. A minimum of 4 months will separate record tests if only 2 record tests are given. The intent is for the AA and the AGR Soldiers to take a record APFT every 6 months. Mission requirements often prevent the even spacing of record tests. Therefore, commanders are encouraged to test Soldiers for record as close to the record test window as possible. (AR 350-1 para e (2) )

(5) Soldiers who fail a record APFT for the first time or fail to take a record APFT within the required period will be flagged in accordance with AR 600–8–2. In the event of a record test failure, commanders may allow Soldiers to retake the test as soon as the Soldier and the commander feel the Soldier is ready. Soldiers without a medical profile will be retested no later than 90 days following the initial APFT failure.The RC Soldiers not on active duty and
without a medical profile will be tested no later than 180 days following the initial APFT failure. (AR 350-1 para 1-24 e (5) )

LT Question or confirmation: Soldier complained to have to take another APFT for Record in July because she finally passed an APFT for Record in April. Situation: She failed first Record APFT in Fall and was in Special Population Group (New politically correct way to say remedial PT group) so therefore, had to take an APFT every month (for record or diagnostic... commander policy), but had to take one for Record within 180 days of failing the first Record of New fiscal year. I believe this would cause her to have to take 3 tests for record deleting the must be 4 months in between APFT. Now if soldier didnt fail and passed, then I wouldnt agree with the two tests with-in 4 months because there are only two tests for Record a year. Someone enlighten me please!
Note:
I was involuntary transfered and became APFT OIC in April and didnt really become a part of APFT program til MOB due to situation.


LT Notes:
The following is a asking for the possibility to reduce a soldier for failing two consecutive APFTs. Reason being, the new BN that I fell under had a policy that if a soldier fails two consecutive APFTs, they would be reduced in rank. I never seen the policy, and my commander never enforced it (which I did not know until Mid July.. I asked the XO and she said he did so I put that info out to all soldiers in the Special Population Group), but I wanted to research the idea to check on the possibility that it can be done.

This is and exert from the regs that states that physical fitness is part of the MOS proficiency.

(3) Physical performance requirements are inherent in many tasks listed in the SM for each MOS. The ability to perform MOS physical tasks is 1 of the criteria for graduation from IET. Soldiers in units must maintain physical fitness proficiency as part of their overall MOS proficiency.
(AR 350-1 para 4-13 (3))

This is the Reg to reduce due to inefficiency.

Reduction for Inefficiency
Inefficiency is a demonstration of characteristics that shows that the person cannot perform duties and responsibilities of the grade and MOS. Inefficiency may also include any act or conduct that clearly shows that the Soldier lacks those abilities and qualities normally required and expected of an individual of that grade and experience. AR (600-8-19 para 10-5)

10–6. Criteria
a. A Soldier must have served in the same unit for at least 90 days prior to being reduced one grade for inefficiency.
b. The CDR starting the reduction action will present documents showing the Soldier’s inefficiency to the reduction authority. This may include—
(1) Statements of counseling and documented attempts at rehabilitation by chain of command or supervisors.
(2) Record of misconduct during the period concerned.
(3) Correspondence from creditors, attempting to collect a debt from the Soldier (see AR 600–15, para 3–1).
(4) Adverse correspondence from civil authorities.
c. Documents will establish a pattern of inefficiency rather than identify a specific incident. Reduction for inefficiency will not be used for the following:
(1) To reduce Soldiers for actions for which they have been acquitted because of court-martial proceedings.
(2) In lieu of UCMJ, Art. 15.
(3) To reduce a Soldier for a single act of misconduct.
d. The CDR reducing the Soldier will inform him or her in writing of the action contemplated and the reasons. The Soldier will acknowledge receipt of the memorandum by endorsement and may submit any pertinent matter in rebuttal.

Is there some way to make a Memorandum or to put this info in the APFT counseling "the correct way", to make it possible to reduce someone for failing two consecutive APFTs for Record.... Note that the criteria says soldier must be part of unit for 90 days, commander can give any soldier an APFT any time he wishes as long as he states it for Record or Diagnostic (I would think that there would have to be a fair time amount in between Records, say more than 60 days for it to be possible). Soldier must take another Record test with in 180 days on the RC side after first Record Failure. Or is there another way to reduce a soldier due to APFT?

Final question... Are there any requirements that a commander must give a soldier XX amount of days in a new unit before the commander can give the soldier an APFT for Record? I know from FM 21-20 the soldier gets 30 days if moving to a climate that has an altitude over 5000+ feet for acclimation. I have been searching regs for a few days now on this one. Also, does anyone know what happened to AR 350-15? Did it get roled into AR 350-1 along with AR 350-41?

Thanks
LT
 
Posts: 3 | Registered: 18 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of Illernoise
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I remember I failed a PT test whenever I was a private and my PSG made me take another pt test two days later.
 
Posts: 658 | Location: Ft. Drum | Registered: 16 June 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of 1SG E
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LT, let me help you out before you step on an IG/Congressional/ land mine. Reduction for inefficiency is not appropriate for failing an APFT. Separation for failing two consecutive APFTs is an option for Active Duty Soldiers under AR 635-200. The corresponding Reserve Component regulation may have similar option. That is the statement that should be included in the counseling statement.

I had a Soldier who openly commented to other Soldiers that it was her intent to fail two consecutive APFTs in order to be separated, therefore, avoid deployment. She should have read the regulation. I recommended Cdr impose bar to reenlistment; Soldier deployed; and, since barred wasn't considered for many favorable actions.

Is this possibly the case here? What is Soldier's APFT history? Always borderline, or suddenly an APFT failure?

The attempt to tie physical fitness test to MOS efficiency. While you provided quotes from the 350-1, you failed to quote the important part of 600-8-19. As you read it below, note these words "characteristics, abilities, and qualities." This policy was not intended for this purpose. Possibly, if the Soldier in question was physically unable to perform the MOS-related tasks due to lack of physical conditioning, it could be considered appropriate, (See AR 611-1 or -3),but the APFT failure would be secondary and best used to demonstrate efforts taken by the unit to correct this lack of ability. To reduce a Soldier for APFT failure using this policy would be an error likely reversible on appeal. However, you can always request the SJA provide the commander an opinion. Here is what it says:

Reduction for Inefficiency
10–5. Policy
Inefficiency is a demonstration of characteristics that shows that the person cannot perform duties and responsibilities
of the grade and MOS. Inefficiency may also include any act or conduct that clearly shows that the Soldier lacks those
abilities and qualities normally required and expected of an individual of that grade and experience. CDRs may
consider misconduct, including conviction by civil court, as bearing on inefficiency. A Soldier may be reduced under
this authority for longstanding unpaid personal debts that he or she has not made a reasonable attempt to pay.

OPTION:Train the Soldier. While you can't make a Soldier pass the APFT, you can provide a training regimen that makes it possible.

Consider AR 635-200, Chapter 14 (or corresponding Reserve regulation):
e. Initiation of separation proceedings is required for soldiers without medical limitations who have two consecutive
failures of the Army physical fitness test per AR 350–1 or who are eliminated for cause from Noncommissioned
Officer Education System courses, unless the responsible commander chooses to impose a bar to re-enlistment per AR
601–280 (RA soldiers) or AR 140–111 (USAR AGR soldiers).
 
Posts: 60 | Registered: 30 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Thanks Top...

The topic of reduction was not for any certain soldier... It was a policy set by the Battalion Cdr of the unit that I was involuntary transferred into. My company commander never enforced the policy, but did mention it. I was trying to figure out if the BN Cdr actually could reduce soldiers for failing two consecutive APFT.

But thanks for the info.
 
Posts: 3 | Registered: 18 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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OK guys heres my question. My husband is in the army (15R) and he has failed I dont even know how many APFT and it is all due to the fact that his legs go numb while running. Now he has asked to go to the doctor and been denied or force of cancelation on appointments. They sent him to sick hall 1 time and the Captain there did not even look at his problem but instead gave him a 30 day profile stating to only run on soft surfaces except if for APFT as needed. So his unit has him on remedial PT and a APFT every thursday. Is there some regu;lation showing something he can do about this or even get chaptered out for this cause they have him flagged and no medical hel[p or anything and im out of ideas please help!!!
 
Posts: 1 | Location: fort hood texas | Registered: 30 May 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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This is a very touchy subject, but i see you are very determined to do what is right, which is half the battle won.

First of all, in my own opinion, any NCO who is in a leadership position who FAILS a RECORD APFT has demonstrated INEFFICIENY. Read again:

"Inefficiency is a demonstration of characteristics that shows that the person cannot perform duties and responsibilities of the grade and MOS. Inefficiency may also include any act or conduct that clearly shows that the Soldier lacks those abilities and qualities normally required and expected of an individual of that grade and experience."

So,if a SSG/E-6 in a Platoon Sergeant position, fails a RECORD APFT, what do you do?

I would immediately remove that NCO from position ASAP. You can't lead from the rear, and you surely can't expect your Soldiers to "drive-on" when the failing individual can't even lead the way. Failing two record APFTs would surely warrant a reduction for inefficeny in my opinion. Of course, the Soldier would be flagged the first time they failed, enrolled in the Special Population PT Program, Enhanced PT Program, Preferred Club, Fat Boy Program, whatever..... Directed to seek medical screening, Dietary counseling, and placed on the Overweight Control Program if applicable.

YOu are doing anextensive job researching your dilemma, but as determined as you are, i would also request the battalion/Company Policy memos on APFT Failures etc. That will support your position of responsibility to help these individuals get motivated.

Some won't. Some will.

As for comas_gurl: I am not buying that story at all. Sounds like there is a motivational issue, a command issue, a physical training issue, medical issue, and leadership issues. FUBAR would sum that up. Again, I am not buying what you are saying one bit. Sounds "far fetched". Sorry.....
 
Posts: 10 | Registered: 02 October 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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It might not be far fecthed... I had a soldier that described the same thing, his legs went numb when he ran. I thought the same thing, motivation, etc. He went to the doc, they gave him the typical run-around from sick call, then he eventually went in enough to get a test done. Turns out he had a medical problem (can't think of the name) where the blood basically pooled up in his legs, and wasn't making it back up to his heart. Pretty crazy, but he could be telling the truth. Odd concept...
 
Posts: 50 | Registered: 13 September 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of Medical_SGT
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I find it amazingly funny how THOSE soldiers play the "profile game" around October and April.

I would suggest that your husband get an outside opinion. See a different doctor and instead of going to sick call (which is for acute appts) make a appt during the day. His injury will get more attention then, because in the morning the PAs see 2000 soldiers with the same injuries repeated over and over ( STDs, shin splints, common cold ect..) it gets repetative. Not to mention the soldiers who just dont want to do PT.

Also suggest to the professional that maybe physical therapy could help also.

Most importantly, he will need to work to improve his overall state of fitness. Until its too late (failed PT test) nobody cares, cause its HIS repsonsibility to stay fit. Tell him to stay motivated and keep charging ahead, eventually (hopefully sooner than later) change will come.


Soldiers may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do.
 
Posts: 174 | Location: FT. Rucker, AL | Registered: 14 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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I don't know how this topic got brought back up but figure I will weigh in. Like 1SG said, I think that any attempt to actually enforce this would likely be overturned eventually. No where in any of those regulations does it say that passing a PT test is a requirement for MOS proficancy. Also in AR 635-200 it lists specific actions that can be taken, but no where in there does it mention reduction.

In repsonce to American Soldier, I believe that PT is definately an important part of being a good NCO, but is by no means the deciding factor. If that was the case then any person with a perm profile that requires an alternate event wouldn't be considered fit to be a leader. Or take it one step further and say that if the NCO fails to score at least as much of their Soldiers, then they are failing to set the standard.


CW3 Troy Ward
NETOPS OCT
Bronco 30E
National Training Center, Fort Irwin, CA

Are you a signal warrant officer? http://www.signal-chief.com/
 
Posts: 604 | Location: National Training Center, Fort Irwin, CA | Registered: 26 October 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of Gameness2
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Got to agree with Medical_SGT, too many soldiers come in complaining about military medicine when they have not done their part. Sick call is for colds, sprained ankles, STDs, not "I have a problem that has been going on for the past 3 months and now they want me to take a PT test". Too many soldiers do not realize that they can make an appt where the provider will actually have the time to sit down and address the problem. Not just write the temp profile, give motrin and ask for the next patient. Leaders need to make sure they are putting this info out.

Going to sick call for a chronic issue is kind of like taking your car to Jiffy Lube because you have a transmission problem.
 
Posts: 110 | Location: Ft Bragg | Registered: 27 July 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of DoubleDuece
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quote:
Originally posted by Medical_SGT:
I find it amazingly funny how THOSE soldiers play the "profile game" around October and April.

I would suggest that your husband get an outside opinion. See a different doctor and instead of going to sick call (which is for acute appts) make a appt during the day. His injury will get more attention then, because in the morning the PAs see 2000 soldiers with the same injuries repeated over and over ( STDs, shin splints, common cold ect..) it gets repetative. Not to mention the soldiers who just dont want to do PT.

Also suggest to the professional that maybe physical therapy could help also.

Most importantly, he will need to work to improve his overall state of fitness. Until its too late (failed PT test) nobody cares, cause its HIS repsonsibility to stay fit. Tell him to stay motivated and keep charging ahead, eventually (hopefully sooner than later) change will come.


OK, so here is a question for you... Lets say a soldier has a recurring problem and he calls the appointment line for the post he works on and they tell him he cant make an appointment. He has to go to sick call. Did the system fail him or is he still a malingering dirt bag?


"War is an act of force, and to the application of that force there is no limit. Each of the advisaries forces the hand of the other, and in a recipricol action results in which there can be no limit..."
Carl von Clausewitz, on war, 1833
 
Posts: 290 | Location: Fort Riley, KS | Registered: 20 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of Gameness
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Why can't soldier get an appt?

If this is the case then soldier has no other choice but to go to sick call and ask the provider to help them schedule an appt or ask for a referral to a specialist if appropriate. In some areas where there is limited care, Tricare may allow a soldier to seek medical care off post. But you would have to call Tricare for clarification.

If the appts are all booked up then you have to be persistent in calling back when the new schedules open. As in my clinic, when we tell a patient that there are no appts available but to call back Tue at 0800 when the new schedule opens and they decide that Wed around lunch will be good enough. Then they get upset because all the appts are taken again.
 
Posts: 12 | Location: Camp Zama, Japan | Registered: 01 August 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of TransAm95NCO
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quote:
Originally posted by Gameness:
Why can't soldier get an appt?

If this is the case then soldier has no other choice but to go to sick call and ask the provider to help them schedule an appt or ask for a referral to a specialist if appropriate. In some areas where there is limited care, Tricare may allow a soldier to seek medical care off post. But you would have to call Tricare for clarification.

If the appts are all booked up then you have to be persistent in calling back when the new schedules open. As in my clinic, when we tell a patient that there are no appts available but to call back Tue at 0800 when the new schedule opens and they decide that Wed around lunch will be good enough. Then they get upset because all the appts are taken again.


Yeah lets talk about that "referring to seek medical care off post." You have to be really sick or be sick for about 3-5 days, thats what they told my wife "you have not been sick long enough and we do not have any appointments sorry"...what happens a DR called her and managed to see her, she had bronchitis (spelling)...not sick enough or long enough...whatever...ok im done venting...lol


Lead by Example!!!
 
Posts: 3915 | Location: Somewhere in the US | Registered: 13 September 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of Gameness2
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Not sure who told you that, but I agree with you that it is a BS answer. No one should have to be sick long enough to get medical care. Think about it, it is cheaper and easier to fix a problem as soon as it develops as opposed to waiting for it to become something more serious.

The other option is always an ER trip. Now I know that no one wants to wait for 8hrs in the ER to be seen, but it is an option. Understand, it is not much better than sick call, but if you have a serious problem then they may be able to help get the atttention that is needed.

One piece of advice I will also offer, do not take the receptionists answers as the final authority. If you get an response that you don't like, always feel free to ask to speak to the NCOIC of the clinic or the Charge Nurse, don't bother to ask for the DR, probably not going to happen. In my experience they will usually do their best to help you IF you approach them in a calm professional manner.
 
Posts: 110 | Location: Ft Bragg | Registered: 27 July 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Plain and simple take of yourself and your loved ones. You got to look out for number one.
 
Posts: 57 | Registered: 25 July 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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