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AR 600-200
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posted
Here is a fun one for you...I have a Soldier who was told by a combat stress Colonel that I could not smoke her. Apparently in AR 600-200 chapter 4 paragraph 2, it states I cannot drop a Soldier outside Basic or AIT. Here is where I need your help...I cannot find the regulation on-line. I see that many other pubs reference AR600-200 (dated 1965, 1988), but I cannot actually pull it up. The AKO link (DA Pubs, ARs, FMs, training, regulations etc...) does not have it listed. I found out it is called "Enlisted Personnel Management System" but I cannot find a comperable regulation with the same name but different number. Does anybody know if this is for sure B.S.? I will keep looking for it, but I think that this officer is over-stepping her area. Any help is greatly appreciated!


Go Kinetic!
 
Posts: 99 | Location: Baghdad | Registered: 01 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of RedLeg81
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http://www.hqda.army.mil/library/mildoc/AR600.htm

It may take a few minutes to load since it is coming from a military database. After a quick review of the material covered, I was not able to find any information on smoking or the lack thereof for Soldiers. This regulation does not cover discipline, other than that of reductions in grade. Either she is confused and gave the wrong AR or she pulled something out of her @$$.

Chapter 4, paragraph 2 deals with the Qualitative Managment Program (Retention)


REDLEG81
 
Posts: 203 | Location: Fort Bliss | Registered: 01 April 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Thanks for your help RedLeg!
Unfortunatly I can't pull the reg up. After many minutes, I get an error message also stating that I 'timed out'. I will take your word on its contents and have a little polite conversation with my new friend.


Go Kinetic!
 
Posts: 99 | Location: Baghdad | Registered: 01 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of Illernoise
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Well if you tell her to drop and she refuses, that's disobeying a non-commissioned officer right there. BAM! haha, sorry.
 
Posts: 658 | Location: Ft. Drum | Registered: 16 June 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Actually, it must be disobeying a lawful order. If she can prove it is actually unlawful.
 
Posts: 81 | Registered: 28 July 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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And now, the exciting conclusion....
Okay, here is how it ended. I spoke with the NCOIC and again with my Battle Buddy. Apparently the 'tent lawyer' was a Specialist that is a counselor, not the colonel. I appologize to the mis-quoted Col. Through RedLeg81 we learned that AR 600-200 deals with Enlisted Management System and the Qualitative Management Program. When I think that maybe the Soldier added a 0, I look in AR 600-20 Ch 4 pp2 I get: "Obedience to Orders: All persons in the military service are required to strictly obey and promptly execute the legal orders of their lawful seniors." So, the trailer lawyer was really just spreading dissent among the ranks. The NCOIC mentioned that legal said something to the effect that I can't drop her, but no more references or proof. If I can't find a reg., and if the whole NCO network on armystudyguide can't find the reg, I am willing to believe that my Soldier can't find it (doesn't exist) and therefore can't prove its an unlawful order.
Besides, how can a Soldier who failed a PT test deny a little free PT? Thanks for all your help.


Go Kinetic!
 
Posts: 99 | Location: Baghdad | Registered: 01 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of High_Speed_S1
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good point, however I think that if I were to even mention something like that to my NCOs, they would smoke me for being petulant and then make me find the reg and show them, not look for it themselves
 
Posts: 42 | Location: Hawaii | Registered: 13 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of High_Speed_S1
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not to mention that you are right, a pt failure should be excited in your interest to help her pass a pt test. Smiler
 
Posts: 42 | Location: Hawaii | Registered: 13 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of High_Speed_S1
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thats probably why she failed a pt test in the first place...not enough PT
 
Posts: 42 | Location: Hawaii | Registered: 13 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of SSGGunbunny
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Tell her it's not punishment, it's remedial PT to help bring her into compliance with AR 350-15.
 
Posts: 267 | Location: I AM a Drill Sergeant.. | Registered: 16 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of Combatdoc7ID
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PT Failure First...IAW AR 600-20 (Check out b.)

4–6. Exercising military authority
a. Military authority is exercised promptly, firmly, courteously and fairly. Commanders should consider administrative
corrective measures before deciding to impose nonjudicial punishment. Trial by court-martial is ordinarily
inappropriate for minor offenses unless lesser forms of administering discipline would be ineffective (see MCM, Part
V, and chap 3, AR 27–10).
b. One of the most effective administrative corrective measures is extra training or instruction (including on-the-spot
correction). For example, if Soldiers appear in an improper uniform, they are required to correct it immediately; if they
do not maintain their housing area properly, they must correct the deficiency in a timely manner. If Soldiers have
training deficiencies, they will be required to take extra training or instruction in subjects directly related to the
shortcoming.
(1) The training, instruction, or correction given to a Soldier to correct deficiencies must be directly related to the
deficiency. It must be oriented to improving the Soldier’s performance in his or her problem area. Corrective measures
may be taken after normal duty hours. Such measures assume the nature of training or instruction, not punishment.
Corrective training should continue only until the training deficiency is overcome. Authority to use it is part of the
inherent powers of command.
(2) Care should be taken at all levels of command to ensure that training and instruction are not used in an
oppressive manner to evade the procedural safeguards applying to imposing nonjudicial punishment. Deficiencies
satisfactorily corrected by means of training and instruction will not be noted in the official records of the Soldiers

So according to this you could have her drop everytime she see's you until she passes her APFT, make sure it is a set number like 20 push-ups.

Next according to AR 600-20 2-18(a-4), It is our responsibility to...

2–18. Noncommissioned officer support channel
a. The NCO support channel (leadership chain) parallels and complements the chain of command. It is a channel of
communication and supervision from the command sergeant major to first sergeant and then to other NCOs and
enlisted personnel of the units. Commanders will define responsibilities and authority of their NCOs to their staffs and
subordinates. This NCO support channel will assist the chain of command in accomplishing the following—
(1) Transmitting, instilling, and ensuring the efficacy of the professional Army ethic (see FM 22–100 for an
explanation of the professional Army ethic).
(2) Planning and conducting the day-to-day unit operations within prescribed policies and directives.
(3) Training of enlisted Soldiers in their MOS as well as in the basic skills and attributes of a Soldier.
(4) Supervising unit physical fitness training and ensuring that unit Soldiers comply with the weight and appearance
standards of AR 600–9 and AR 670–1. ......(The list continued)

According to this it is your duty as a NCO to drop her to ensure she complies with AR 600-9 and AR 670-1

Last but not least we must look in the Hazing section of the req to make sure we don't fall underneth this, so here is what is says... (Look at 2b)

4–20. Hazing
The Army has been and continues to be a values-based organization where everyone is encouraged to do what is right
by treating others as they should be treated—with dignity and respect. Hazing is fundamentally in opposition to our
values and is prohibited.
a. Definition. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby one military member or employee, regardless of Service or
rank, unnecessarily causes another military member or employee, regardless of Service or rank, to suffer or be exposed
to an activity that is cruel, abusive, oppressive, or harmful.
(1) Hazing includes, but is not limited, to any form of initiation "rite of passage" or congratulatory act that involves:
physically striking another in order to inflict pain; piercing another’s skin in any manner; forcing or requiring the
consumption of excessive amounts of food, alcohol, drugs, or other substances; or encouraging another to engage in
illegal, harmful, demeaning or dangerous acts. Soliciting or coercing another to participate in any such activity is also
considered hazing. Hazing need not involve physical contact among or between military members or employees; it can
be verbal or psychological in nature.
(2) When authorized by the chain of command and not unnecessarily cruel, abusive, oppressive, or harmful, the
following activities do not constitute hazing:
(a) The physical and mental hardships associated with operations or operational training.
(b) Administrative corrective measures, including verbal reprimands and a reasonable number of repetitions of
authorized physical exercises.
(c) Extra military instruction or training.
(d) Physical training or remedial physical training....(this also continues)

So in conclusion, we can "smoke" our Soldiers if our Chain of Command authorizes it. So a trip to the 1SG and Commander or even PL can clear this up. But WAIT...if we are the Squad Leader we ARE part of the Chain of Command. So if no other directive about it was ever given a squad leader can authorize the "smoking" of a Soldier.

OH YEA CAN YOU FEEL IT....FRONT LEANING REST POSITION MOVE! Get ready for some Old School....Game on!

LIGHTFIGHTER

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Combatdoc7ID,


Next to God a Grunts Best Friend...LIGHTFIGHTER HOAH
 
Posts: 10 | Registered: 07 April 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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Question: Does an NCO have to drop with the Soldier? If they do not does AR 600-200 cover this? If it does I'm having issues downloading this reg.
 
Posts: 1 | Registered: 18 August 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of 51C
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quote:
Originally posted by Ripley:
Question: Does an NCO have to drop with the Soldier? If they do not does AR 600-200 cover this? If it does I'm having issues downloading this reg.


Of course not. Why would a NCO have to drop with the Soldier? I have yet to have someone explain a good answer to me. And don't pull that b.s about "oh if your a good NCO you will do it with your Soldier".

BLUF: if a Soldier deserves corrective training and you detemine that a reasonable number of repetitions of authorized physical exercises will correct that deficiency, said Soldier is to execute and move out.
 
Posts: 467 | Location: CONUS | Registered: 04 January 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Picture of AutobahnSHO
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quote:
Originally posted by Ripley:
Question: Does an NCO have to drop with the Soldier?


Why? Is the NCO getting punished for something??


Be Proud of what you do- and do it Well! ~me
 
Posts: 5281 | Location: Ft Gordon (Again!!!) :-| | Registered: 22 October 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post

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I hear what you guys are saying, but me personally, I like the PT and it keeps me from hearing their whining. Luckily I have only had one sh!tbag though I have had to smoke on a reg basis.
 
Posts: 2603 | Registered: 08 March 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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