I am a squad leader and one of my soldiers has failed his PT test 3 times in a row. We are in Iraq. My questions are:
If you fail a PT test in Iraq, CAN the command give you an article 15?
If you attempt to pass and keep making an effort, can they still give you an article 15?
The soldier does PT with me 2 times a day everyday. Command is making him take a PT test every friday. Overkill in my book, but none the less...
Would greatly appreciate an answer to this and a regulation I can find it under. Been tussling through the UCMJ and am finding nothing on deployed PT test failure.
Originally posted by TripleB: I am a squad leader and one of my soldiers has failed his PT test 3 times in a row. We are in Iraq. My questions are:
If you fail a PT test in Iraq, CAN the command give you an article 15?
If you attempt to pass and keep making an effort, can they still give you an article 15?
The soldier does PT with me 2 times a day everyday. Command is making him take a PT test every friday. Overkill in my book, but none the less...
Would greatly appreciate an answer to this and a regulation I can find it under. Been tussling through the UCMJ and am finding nothing on deployed PT test failure.
Thanx for any help!
You cannot get an Article 15 for failing an APFT, no matter where you are. If the failure is caused by a breach of UCMJ, then that breach can be punished by an Article 15, but the failure itself cannot be.
"What we see from our tower is for us to know and for you to find out."--The S-2
Posts: 282 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 21 September 2004
They are now telling me, that he will get an article 15 for malingering, which he IS NOT malingering and with my chain of command, it will go through probably.
Like I posted before, he does PT with me twice a day, he is showing gradual improvement NOT MUCH, but definately more motivated now that we started PT twice a day. He is failing his run that is it, by 3 minutes. He is a HEAVY smoker in his defense, smoking a pack every day.
He is a very quiet troop, but none the less, he does NOT deserve his rank taken away because of the bordum of an E8/O3
If the soldier is doing that much running and is still having a problem ... it sounds like a possible medical issue. I would have him checked out asap. I've seen a simular situation where the unit leadership was acting like this and it turned out that the soldier had cancer. I hope its not that serious but i would go with him and make sure the medical personel understand how much PT this soldier is doing and with litle or no improvement. Also, keep a copy of the sick slip and notes of what the doctor said to CYA yourself just in case.
Originally posted by TripleB: New update to this drama.
They are now telling me, that he will get an article 15 for malingering, which he IS NOT malingering and with my chain of command, it will go through probably.
Like I posted before, he does PT with me twice a day, he is showing gradual improvement NOT MUCH, but definately more motivated now that we started PT twice a day. He is failing his run that is it, by 3 minutes. He is a HEAVY smoker in his defense, smoking a pack every day.
He is a very quiet troop, but none the less, he does NOT deserve his rank taken away because of the bordum of an E8/O3
I need suggestions please!
Something is up or you are not telling us something. The following are the elements for Malingering.
40. Article 115—Malingering a. Text of statute. Any person subject to this chapter who for the purpose of avoiding work, duty, or service ”— (1) feigns illness, physical disablement, mental lapse or derangement; or ( 2 ) i n t e n t i o n a l l y i n f l i c t s s e l f - i n j u r y ; s h a l l b e punished as a court-martial may direct. b. Elements. ( 1 ) T h a t t h e a c c u s e d w a s a s s i g n e d t o , o r w a s aware of prospective assignment to, or availability for, the performance of work, duty, or service; (2) That the accused feigned illness, physical disablement, mental lapse or derangement, or intentionally inflicted injury upon himself or herself; and (3) That the accused’s purpose or intent in doing so was to avoid the work, duty, or service. [Note: If the offense was committed in time of war or in a hostile fire pay zone, add the following element] (4) That the offense was committed (in time of war) (in a hostile fire pay zone).
According to what you have told us, I don't understand how they can give him an Art. 15 for Malingering. Does he go to sick-call a lot?
I have not left information out. This is how our battalion has operated for four years. They sit around and FIND something they can give soldiers article 15's for. They say that he is malingering because he has failed 3 PT tests and he is not doing PT by avoiding improvement on purpose. They are trying to send him to mental health also as a punishment. You are definately right, something IS up, but in the past 4 years, IG, Legal, and no one else I personally have talked too, has been able to help any of the soldiers that have had a false article 15 for something they didn't neccessarily do. Basically, I am wondering how I would go about fighting for him, besides just saying he does PT with me everyday? We also have 2 other soldiers that randomly do PT with us and I will have them help, but they are afraid of the chain of command and do not want to even step foot anywhere at the company to help someone out in fear for the repercussions onto them in the future. All these answers have helped out alot! I appreciate anything else my fellow soldiers can throw to me here! Keep the responses coming.
Oh, to answer the question about sick call. NO he does not ever go to sick call. In fact I have never seen him go since we have been in Iraq for the past 10 months.
Though the saying is cheesy, its true PT is free. You say he is doing PT twice a day, well then either one of two things need to happen: you up it to three times a day until he passes or you check your PT schedule because it obviously is failing. The army pays us to stay in shape, and there is no reason a soldier in the United States Army can not pass there PT test (unless of course there is a diagnosed heath issue). You said "in his defense he is a heavy smoker" thats no excuse. I and a lot of people in my section smoke but never will my run get above a 1300 two mile period. If he cant breath when he runs, go to the SMRC and get the patch its free, smoking is no excuse. It is a direct representation on both the SM and the leadership when he fails each test.
Oh and stop bagging on your leadership, personally my opinion if this soldier consistently fails, he doesn't belong in the military. How am I suppose to trust my life in his hands if he cant even run a measly two miles in what 16 17 minutes and thats if he is 21.
Explain to me how PT x 3 a day helps the situation?? Ever here of overtraining? So lets just injure the guy instead of helping, great attitude.
If an AR 15 for malingering is pursued, go to JAG and fight it. It is hard enough to get someone that is acutally malingering in trouble, much less someone that isn't.
As for the PT, are you keeping a daily log of his progress? This can help with motivation and it is also a record that can be used to help validate your defense for malingering (which I would like to know how they plan on proving).
Definately consider getting this soldier a medical appt, notice I said appt not sick call, big difference. An appt will allow the Dr to give the soldier more attention without being rushed.
Reevaluate you PT, are you just running two miles or are you mixing it up with other types of aerobic exercise?
Posts: 109 | Location: Ft Bragg | Registered: 27 July 2007
Remember, he doesn't have to accept an Article 15. He can always choose a Courts Martial. That is more work and JAG will be able to do more for the soldier. Remember that an article 15 is non judicial. If you think you are getting hosed unfairly, go to courts martial. If you are just doing something wrong you are going to get hammered a lot harder, but if you aren't no punishment.
"War is an act of force, and to the application of that force there is no limit. Each of the advisaries forces the hand of the other, and in a recipricol action results in which there can be no limit..." Carl von Clausewitz, on war, 1833
Posts: 286 | Location: Fort Riley, KS | Registered: 20 May 2004
I will keep you all posted with his decision. I will be taking him to the TMC tomorrow morning to make an appointment. He says there is nothing wrong, but soldiers will be soldiers. I have made some notes on his progress and will be presenting them sometime soon when they pursue this punishment. I will let this forum know the outcome of this situation.
As for the PT, I give a pretty good program, running mon, wed, fri with upper body workout on tues and thurs along with lower body in the mornings on tues and thur and a light workout, quick run in the mornings on mon, wed, and fri. The upper body is stamina building, and the runs are preceded by some cardio. The runs are, mon 3 miles and up a 1/8 mile hill, wed is the 2 mile pt track, and fri is sprints/2 and 1/2 miles or 4 mile stretch run. He is definately motivated throughout the run, I think he just does not know when to push himself and when to give up. He is older, 32, he has had some traumatic things happen in his life, so it might just be psychological but we will see.
There is no reason why a SM in the United States Military cannot pass his PT test, regardless.
Your not going to over-work him, if done properly but if the PT was done properly we really wouldnt be in the situation. So hes motivated to run Mon Wed Fri but cant get motivated to lift a flag and a possible AR 15 by running 2 miles in 1742 are you kidding me. Thats just under a 9 min mile. Why dont you pace him during the run to help motivate him if he has such a problem with motivation.
Regardless, you guys are right an AR 15 for malingering isnt right. Instead CH 11 paperwork, Failure to Adapt because its obvious, motivated or not he doesnt blong in the Army ESPECIALLY if he fails again.
Originally posted by FisterCadet: There is no reason why a SM in the United States Military cannot pass his PT test, regardless.
Your not going to over-work him, if done properly but if the PT was done properly we really wouldnt be in the situation. So hes motivated to run Mon Wed Fri but cant get motivated to lift a flag and a possible AR 15 by running 2 miles in 1742 are you kidding me. Thats just under a 9 min mile. Why dont you pace him during the run to help motivate him if he has such a problem with motivation.
Regardless, you guys are right an AR 15 for malingering isnt right. Instead CH 11 paperwork, Failure to Adapt because its obvious, motivated or not he doesnt blong in the Army ESPECIALLY if he fails again.
1st off if the sm is in iraq i highly doubt he'll get a chapter 11 (entry level performance and conduct), but he could get a chapter 13 for unsatisfactory performance...
2)wait until the sm has seen a medical professional before we knock him down for not passing...
...my 2 cents
I am a soldier, I fight where I'm told, and win where I fight.
Posts: 221 | Location: FORT LEAVENWORTH, KS | Registered: 27 September 2006
I had a soldier fail the sit ups and run when I was in Korea, what did I do? I did PT with him after work, and part of that was running the same PT test route (we all hated it) every day to see how fast he was running it...he was so tired of running it he confessed "I failed the run b/c I had already failed the sit ups, so I decided not to push myself" which I can understand but still he should have tried to pass...so we concentrated on his sit ups and he passed.
Lead by Example!!!
Posts: 1212 | Location: Somewhere in the US | Registered: 13 September 2007
You have 90 days from the failure of an APFT to pass. You are required to take monthly diagnostics and can opt to take the APFT early, but you must recieve an official counseling stating that you are aware of the consequences of failing the APFT and that you choose to forgo your alloted 90 days to improve.
The command cannot force a weekly Record APFT after a record fail.
Also, barring any medical issues, the SM does need some serious help. It sounds far more psychological than anything else. And if he is having that much trouble running, then he is not is a condition to serve in the military.
Though I will admit previous comments have been incredibly harsh. Some people simply aren't runners, just as some are not good at push-ups, or sit-ups. No one has even inquired about his eating habits, job duties, or if he ahs other issues at home that may be affecting him.
Either way. The Command is not following Army Regulation. And Malingering is not an appropriate label.
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