My squad is currently deployed to a FOB that is majority Marines and Navy. We have to work with them on a daily basis. With that being said, within my squad is a SSG, SGT, and 6 SPCs(one promotable). There have been some instances where a Marine CPL(their E-4) has tried to push rank issues and ordering the SPCs around.

My question is this, Does a Marine CPL(reguardless of TIG/TIS) outrank an Army SPC? I know in the army a CPL outranks a SPC, even though both are E-4s, usually because the CPL is in charge of a team or group or is awaiting promotion to SGT. But we all know that there are some units out there(like mine) that see no use in the CPL rank, other than having another NCOER to write, when you can give the same job to a SPC and not have to laterally promote him/her..

Off the top of my head I say yes. He is an NCO.

A Marine CPL outranks a SPC for the same reason an Army CPL outranks a SPC... He is an NCO.

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I know in the army a CPL outranks a SPC, even though both are E-4s, usually because the CPL is in charge of a team or group or is awaiting promotion to SGT.

Hopefully I am misinterpreting this quote. It sounds like you are saying that an Army CPL who is not in charge of a team or group, or is not awaiting promotion to SGT doesn't outrank a SPC. That is not the case. No matter what the reason for a SPC becoming a CPL he is no longer the same as a SPC. The fact that they are the same grade gives some soldiers the wrong idea. You should look at CPLs as NCO's who by coincidence get paid the same as a SPC.

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Off the top of my head I say yes. He is an NCO.

A Marine CPL outranks a SPC for the same reason an Army CPL outranks a SPC... He is an NCO.

Understandable, according to the marine corps, their CPL is concidered a NCO. But even a promotable SPC is thought of as a junior NCO in the army, most never see the lateral to CPL.

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Hopefully I am misinterpreting this quote. It sounds like you are saying that an Army CPL who is not in charge of a team or group, or is not awaiting promotion to SGT doesn't outrank a SPC.

yeah, I know that. I just didn't put it clearly. I was meaning that it's usually the E-4 that is in charge of a team, group or awaiting promotion to SGT, that is given CPL.

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Originally posted by ADA-J-cram:
My question is this, Does a Marine CPL(reguardless of TIG/TIS) outrank an Army SPC? I know in the army a CPL outranks a SPC, even though both are E-4s, usually because the CPL is in charge of a team or group or is awaiting promotion to SGT. But we all know that there are some units out there(like mine) that see no use in the CPL rank, other than having another NCOER to write, when you can give the same job to a SPC and not have to laterally promote him/her..

CPL's don't get NCOERs.

I know he's an E-4... and I know he's a MARINE... but yes, CPL in the Marines is an NCO, just like the Army.

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I know in the army a CPL outranks a SPC, even though both are E-4s, usually because the CPL is in charge of a team or group or is awaiting promotion to SGT.

Not neccessarily true. When I was laterally promoted, my realm consisted of a desk, some pens, and a whole lotta paperwork. Yes, I was promotable, but not only did anyone not know (they found out when I got pinned), but I wasn't even working in my MOS, or the same corps for that matter. Lateral promotions could be for a number of reasons, not just because you've been promotable for 6 years and your supervisor feels bad for you, or because you're in charge of soldiers.

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There have been some instances where a Marine CPL(their E-4) has tried to push rank issues and ordering the SPCs around.

What exactly is he telling you to do that you don't think is right? If this CPL is not your supervisor or in your support channel/COC, then you should do the following. Execute the order and bring your gripe to your supervisor afterwards. Let your NCO deal with the CPL on an NCO level.

I fell to agree with that. Even though the Marine CPL is considered an NCO in the Marines. He doesn't actually outank an Army E4 he is the same as an E4. Now it comes down to TIG/TIS.

Thats like saying a petty officer outranks a SPC just becuase hes in a diffrent branch I fail to agree.

Say that SPC(P) went to WLC and the CPL (went to the CPL course) there is really no differnce they are both awaiting promotion to E5. It's just that one branch puts more stock in the E4 slot.

This is really a question of the leadership. If they want to put a PV2 OR lcpl in charge of SOMETHING that is there perogative. If the leadership there wants the Marine CPL in charge it may be for a good reason. As he may be more proficent but no on paper to me they are the same differnce.

This is why I wish the branches rank structure were more in line.

Just imagine you are on a detail you have all 5 branches present and they all have the same TIG/TIS.

So you have a Marine CPL, Army SPC, AF SrA, Navy PO.

The person in charge of that detail is whoever leadership puts in charge.

i remember when I went to training at Kirtland AF base for a course called retops. It was a joint training situation. And they elected me class leader and I used to get heartache from The Marines and Seaman. (The Army was pretty good about it). I was the class leader just becuase the cadre appointed me as that.

Alss on another detail in the desert I outranked an Army SPC but he was in charge due to the fact that he knew the area and was a veteran. And I respected that.

So what you should ask yourself is this. Is there a reason why this CPL thinks he's in charge?

Also on a side note I work with a CPL and I have way more promotion points(140 more) then him/her but I respect the fact that the company choice to give him/her CPL...And Im like the only one that respects it and he/she gives me all kind of attitude I always think it may be becuase he/she thinks I am being sarcastic. But I respect the fact that Army CPL is a hard rank to wear.

You are put in charge of your peers and they resent you for it yet you arent an E5.Its kind of like you are a go between. So while I have a far better chance of making E5 he/she is in charge now and I give proper respect.

Also this is only an Army issue becuase the paygrade has 2 different ranks SPC/CPL. All the other ones split it down to one to let you know that said person is a jr NCO.

You notice the AF 1SGT is any E7 or E8 with the diamond. So you will see lots of end fighting between other SR NCO's until a CMSgt gets involved. In the AF Its a special duty where as in the Marines and Army it is the highest ranking enlisted in a Company.

But you never see no problems between Army MSgts and Army 1SGTS...Becuase most Army MSGgts respect the fact that the 1SG is in charge. Or maybe didnt want the position to begin with.


This is all from my point of view and personel experience I may be wrong IN YOUR OPINION. But as soon as I gain my own squad Im goin to groom whomever I feel has potential to reach the next highest level. Not just becuase they been in a long time but becuase of there potential and attitude. Im at the point now where I would love to see someone I groom move on to bigger and better things. And Im only 5 years in. I need to be a recruiter.

You took 2 differant turns on that one King.

First you are saying the Marine CPL does not necessarly outrank the Army SPC, and it comes down to TIS/TIG (I have to disagree on that one)

Then you mention that between a MSG and a 1SG, the 1SG is always in charge. (I have to agree on that)

The army SPC needs to recognize, that that marine CPL needs to be respected like like an Army CPL.


..Im with.....same as---> ANY Marine CPL outranks ANY Army SPC.....that's an NCO.

Im comparing the Army SPC(P) WLC with the Marine CPL...Becuase Its not the Soldiers fought that his branch has 2 diffrent distinctions. A Petty Officer is also an NCO as well. (Navy Marines) E4 is an NCO.

Army CPL-SGM (NCO-SrNCO)

BUT I think that an Army Spc is on the same field as the Navy and Marine E4.

But whose in charge comes down really to who is put in charge.

tHis gets into the whole topic of depending on which post you are on the people in charge of that post be it Navy, AF, Marines are in charge.

Becuase Ive seen situation where an Army SGM and a Command CMSgt got into it over rules.

quote:

Originally posted by ADA-J-cram:
My question is this, Does a Marine CPL(reguardless of TIG/TIS) outrank an Army SPC?

Short answer is Yes ... Does an Army CPL outrank an Army SPC? Even though a Marine CPL does not get a Fitness Report (NCOER in the Marines), a Corporal is an NCO and wears blood stripes on his trousers.

Good point with the Master Sergeant and First Sergeant.

Being a former Marine Corporal (and later Marine Sergeant) myself I know that a Marine Corporal is nearly equivalent to an Army Sergeant in terms of their responsibilities.

References anyone?

The Army makes very clear who outranks who in the Army. Stands to reason that there should be some sort of publication relating to the precedence of rank between services.

http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/

The Army, for example, has the ranks of corporal and specialist at the pay grade of E-4. A corporal is expected to fill a leadership role and has a higher rank than a specialist even though both receive the same amount of pay. In the Marine Corps, master gunnery sergeants and sergeant majors are E-9s, but the sergeant major has the higher rank.

I think the Army should adopt the Marine Corps idea of making all E-4's Corporals, it seems pointless to have two ranks for the same pay grade. I know as a Specialist, PFC's and below aren't as apt to follow my instructions as they would a Corporals, simply because he is an NCO and I am not. Especially with today's new Soldiers, they are perfectly aware that they could possibly receive UCMJ punishment for disobeying and/or disrepecting an NCO. As far as I know there isn't anything in the UCMJ that holds them accountable for telling a Specialist to go screw himself. Of course this is more of an opinion than an answer to the question, so to answer the question, yes a corporal in the Marines does out rank an Army Specialist.

To be honest, I think Privates listen better to Specialists. It might be an MP thing, but just about all of the soldiers I know look at Corporals and see a "fake sergeant", something akin to that "drill private" from basic training. I'm kinda glad I'm not working with MP's right now, because I'm positive I'd have a hard time. I see where they're coming from though, and I too think that the Army CPL is like a sorry excuse. I think they should just get rid of it. Or it least give me an NCOER.

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CPL's don't get NCOERs.

this is taken directly from the study guide, NCOER section.

(DA PAM 623-3 MAY 2006/ 3-1 / PDF 36)
Is the use of the 2166-8-1 mandatory for counseling all NCOs in the ranks of CPL through CSM? YES

(DA PAM 623-3 MAY 2006/ 3-2 / PDF 40)
Who recieves an NCOER?
ALL NCOs

I agree that the Army just needs to do away with the separate E-4 ranks. cause one is labeled as an NCO and the other is not. However, there are SPC that can do the job just as good and sometimes better than a CPL, SGT, or even SSG. I've seen it. But that SPC wont recieve any type of lateral promotion because their chain of command is too lazy to put in the 4187 for it.

So here you are confronted with a soldier who displays outstanding leadership and the ability to accomplish his/her mission above and beyond that of even some of his superiors, and not given anything to show that they are more than just the rank on their collar.
Instead he keeps having to do these jobs that should be done by SGTs and no rewards, no respect.. just people looking at him, saying "meh, he's just a spc.."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SGT-CRAM,

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Originally posted by SPC.Cyserro:
I think the Army should adopt the Marine Corps idea of making all E-4's Corporals,

I think another reason for it is because not all E-4's are ready to become NCO's and a CPL is just a little bit closer to being a SGT. Kinda like a test rank if you will.

I dont know. Just making an opinion