I am very confused as to what process should be used to determine what correspondence courses/subcourses count towards promotion points and how to get credit for these correspondence courses.

My husband had previously worked on 768 hours of correspondence subcourses -- prior to January 2007 -- and these hours have been placed on his ERB for Correspondence Hours. Now, we think we're being told that only whole courses count for promotion points, that these courses have to be listed in ATRRS to receive credit, and that there is no way for him to receive credit for these 768 hours. Does anyone know if this is true and/or have some information -- or be able to point us towards some information -- that can be used when talking to S1 about getting credit and promotion points? Also, if everything has to be listed in ATRRS, how does that work with the ACCP courses?

Any help or information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Original Post
Currently all subcourses are worth credit for promotion points. It is being discussed right now whether or not in the new promotion system only whole courses should count. The new system has not yet been announced or made official, although we've seen some rough drafts of it. So for now your husband should be fine with his 768 hours of subcourses.
Thanks, Wolve. So when he goes to S-1 to get his promotion points updated on DA Form 3355, those 768 hours should give him 153 points, correct -- according to the 5 hours = 1 point rule? I only ask because I guess his S-1 wasn't wanting to give him credit for those hours and therefore didn't want to give him those points.
kidzheart,

I stand corrected. I wanted to make sure the information I put out was correct and the new promotion regulation was just released. Your husband's courses now have to be in ATTRS before they can be added. You have brought up an issue that will effect thousands of Soldiers and an issue that may be handled differently by each Post's promotion section until they are aware of the new standard.
I'll quote from the new and the old regulations to make sure that you and your husband, and any other Soldiers reading this are aware of the change:

From AR 600-8-19 dated 11 July 2007 (which took effect on 1 August 2007) Section 3-46 1 (A)
quote:
Military correspondence courses and computer-based training (e-learning courses). For each 5 credit hours
completed, 1 promotion point is awarded. This includes nonresident NCS courses. To determine promotion points, total the credit hours completed then divide by 5. The result is the number of promotion points to be awarded; fractions will be dropped. Course completion with credit hours must be reflected in ATRRS prior to awarding promotion points.


This is what it stated in the prior version of AR 600-8-19 Section 3-46 (4) which is now no longer in effect:
quote:
(4) Military correspondence courses and computer-based training. For each 5 credit hours completed, 1 promotion point is awarded. This includes nonresident NCS courses. To determine promotion points, total the credit hours completed then divide by 5. The result is the number of promotion points to be awarded; fractions will be dropped.



I apologize for giving you the wrong answer at first. I will have to find out what the personnel at the Promotions sections are saying based on this information as well. It appears that only full courses will be authorized as promotion points. This raises the question: Are those Soldiers who have previously received points for just the subcourses losing points? I will have to find out more information about this as well as consult the entire regulation on updates. Thank you for bringing this issue up and I hope your question was answered.
Wolve,

Thank you for your responses. They have been helpful. What you stated is what we thought we had discovered after doing some research. You do bring up a good question about other soldier losing points for completed subcourses. I am not sure if they will lose points if the points have already been placed on their promotion points sheet (I believe it is DA Form 3355), but if they aren't on there already, I believe they will lose points.

If you find out any additional information, could you please let me know? Also, if I find out anything else, I will be sure to post it on the website.

Thanks again for your help.

kidzheart
Like I said, this is now become an issue that needs to be directed by HRC's Enlisted Promotions so that we can have guidance on what the policy change will be. I've contacted the head of Fort Campbell's promotion section and I will be posting their response on this matter.
Thanks. I have one more question. My husband said he thought he'd heard that since his 768 hours were listed on his ERB as Correspondence Course Hours that they would be "grandfathered in" under this new regulation change. Do you know anything about that?

Sorry for asking so many questions. It appears that and my husband's the first one in his unit to get impacted by the change, and he doesn't want the same thing to happen to everyone else. We would also like to be able to help others in the same situation or help them avoid the same situation.
SGT E, while sham school screwed the people who actually did the courses the correct way ( doing the course by themselves and it is opne book) The new promotion point system was set to have the new standards for the courses way before the 15-6 on sham school. I saw the proposal lhis past feb of march when I was downrange and thought I am gonna get screw.. I have 352 hours Via coor courses and some 200 hours via e Army online. So I don't know how many "good" hours I would be able to use
Yea this is insane, so where in ATRRS do you find what correspondence courses are worth doing? Because my soldiers are continuing to complete them but I dont want them to waste there time doing courses which are not going to get them any promotion points.
SGT E from what I can tell you, My Earmy courses are on ATTARS Transcripts, but not the COOR Courses. I just use the print out to update my ERB. IF the new system goes into effect, BIG Army needs to change the Distance Learning Websites to make it easier for the NCO's to tell thier troops what to do, and what to avoid, but then again, I love my job, and it just happens to be hitting its max promo points at 440 for 2ndary zone (11B!!)
I'm glad to see that my husband basically getting screwed out of any promotion from here on out -- there's no way he get get enough points in his MOS (68W where you need at least 650 for E5 promotion) without the credit of those correspondence hours -- has the potential to help so many other people.

What I've found is that now once you complete a course in ACCP, it gets listed in ATRRS. However, the number of credit hours doesn't get listed. Also, here's another thing to be carefull about especially if you've done a lot of the submodules separately:
The courses in ACCP have a number of credit hours that they're worth. However, once you've done a submodule, you can no longer do it again so you lose those credit hours for other courses. This is what is going to screw a lot of soldiers who had previously done a lot of submodules. For example, my husband signed up for a 130 credit hour course and will only get credit for 75 hours because of the "exempt" submodules that he had previously done.

As for the SkillSoft courses, I don't know how that works. If those are the ones from the Army e-learning, from what I understand they will still count for civilian education at a 4-to-1 ratio: 4 hours of SkillSoft courses is 1 promotion point.

desertgrunt: what are the Earmy courses you talked about? Are they the ones you can get to from ATRRS and the Army e-Learning? Am I correct that they count for civilian eduation or do they count for military education?

ShamSchool was an internet site that had answers posted for the ACCP submodules. The ShamSchool site still exists, but it is now a discussion forum and has no posted answers.

Hopefully as new information is learned on how this new promotion points system is working it'll continue to get posted here.
Does anyone happen to know how many hours of submodules there are in ACCP or how to find out? Just curious because I at first thought there were only 1500, but I think there are a lot more than that...

Also, does anyone -- and Wolve this might be a question for you -- know the proper way ACCP correspondence courses should be listed in ATRRS to get promotion point credit and where the look in ATRRS to see what ACCP courses are listed? Also, and maybe this is part of my previous question, if a course is listed in ATRRS does that guarantee the soldier would get credit for it when figuring out promotion points?
The army e-learning counts as military ed.

As wolve stated before

From AR 600-8-19 dated 11 July 2007 (which took effect on 1 August 2007) Section 3-46 1 (A)

Military correspondence courses and computer-based training (e-learning courses). For each 5 credit hours
completed, 1 promotion point is awarded. This includes nonresident NCS courses. To determine promotion points, total the credit hours completed then divide by 5. The result is the number of promotion points to be awarded; fractions will be dropped. Course completion with credit hours must be reflected in ATRRS prior to awarding promotion points.
Ok so look at this...Looks like your husband will be fine... this MILPER MESSAGE just came out today..

MILPER MESSAGE NUMBER : 07-219
AHRC-MSP-E
PROMOTION PROCEDURAL GUIDANCE FOR PROCESSING PROMOTION POINTS UNDER CIVILIAN EDUCATION
...Issued: [08/16/2007]...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



REFERENCE:

AR 600-19, ENLISTED PROMOTIONS AND REDUCTIONS, DATED 11 JUL 07

1. THIS MESSAGE WILL REMAIN IN EFFECT UNTIL SUPERCEEDED, RESCINDED OR INCORPORATED IN A FUTURE REVISION OF AR 600-8-19.

2. THIS MESSAGE PROVIDES PROCEDURAL GUIDANCE FOR PROCESSING PROMOTIONS POINTS UNDER THER PROVISION OF AR 600-8-19, PARAGRAPH 3-46 (MILITARY EDUCATION).

3. BECAUSE ATTRS IS NOT CONFIGURED TO SUPPORT CURRENT POLICY, IN LIEU OF THE ATTRS PRINTOUT AS DIRECTED IN AR 600-8-19 PARA 3-46, DATED 11 JUL 07, PROMOTION WORK CENTERS ARE TO USE THE ARMY CORRESPONDENCE COURSE (ACCP) PRINTOUT TO CALCULATE CREDIT HOURS FOR MILITARY CORRESPONDENCE.

4. ARMY POLICY AWARDING 1 PROMOTION POINT FOR EACH 5 CREDIT HOURS COMPLETED REMAINS INTACT. THIS INCLUDES COMPUTER BASED TRAINING AND NCS COURSES. WHEN CALCULATING PROMOTION POINTS, TOTAL CREDIT HOURS COMPLETED THEN DIVIDE BY 5. THE RESULT IS THE NUMBER OF PROMOTION POINTS TO BE AWARDED; FRACTIONS WILL BE DROPPED.

5. PROMTION WORK CENTERS MUST ENSURE THE SOLDIER’S ERB REFLECTS CORRECT CORRESPONDENCE COURSE HOURS.

6. POINT OF CONTACT FOR THIS MESSAGE IS THE JUNIOR ENLISTED PROMOTION BRANCH, DSN 892-1207, OR COMMERCIAL 1-877-215-9834


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Use this URL to link to this document
http://PERSCOMND04.ARMY.MIL/MILPERmsgs.nsf/All+Documents/07-219?OpenDocument

https://perscomnd04.army.mil/MILPERMSGS.NSF

So the Army Changes the AR and then comes out with a MILPER message saying NEVERMIND man I love the Army hahaha

"798 or BUST"
alaskaviper: Thank you for that answer about army e-learning. No one here had completed any of those courses so that was why I was asking.

Sgt E: Thank you so much for that information! I am sure that will make a lot of people happy: I know it did me Smiler My only question with that is does it still only mean whole courses or do subcourses now count again?

I would like to see this thread continue, though, since I am sure policies on this will continue to change, and I hate to see any solder screwed out of things that are rightfully theirs because of lack of information.

Thanks everyone for all of your information!
You know it feels pretty good to bring up a problem on promotions to the top promotions personnel on post before a MILPER comes out. Now I know that the e-mail I sent out will be replied with the MILPER that just came out. Kinda funny that the Army realized that they messed up and reverted back to the old system.
quote:
Originally posted by desertgrunt:
SGT E, while sham school screwed the people who actually did the courses the correct way ( doing the course by themselves and it is opne book) The new promotion point system was set to have the new standards for the courses way before the 15-6 on sham school. I saw the proposal lhis past feb of march when I was downrange and thought I am gonna get screw.. I have 352 hours Via coor courses and some 200 hours via e Army online. So I don't know how many "good" hours I would be able to use


I don't think Sham School "screwed anyone". Cheating on these exams has been done this way for years. I even had a CSM inform me that "back in my day we passed around a three ring binder". And Sham School is not just about ACCP answers. There is a ton of other information on there, from leader's books to pre-made powerpoint training classes.

I am not trying to sell Sham School here, just take a little offense to people only looking at the negative side of something I intended to be positive.

I mainly wanted to ask something in relation to ACCP. I heard that the Army is now only accepting full courses and no longer subcourses. I even see one person on Sham School who claims to work in a S1 saying they have already changed over to this new method. Problem is I can't find any information to support this.

Is this true or are some units getting the jump on something based upon a rumor?
Just a quick reminder that ArmyStudyGuide.com does not condone ACCP cheating. I'm going to check the named site tonight (not when I'm on an Army computer); if cheating materials are still available, I'm going to remove this thread from the public forums.

Cheating is a crime, punishable by UCMJ. By providing those materials, you are an accessory. The fact that it's been done for years does not excuse the offense (even a CSM can be wrong).

BTW RazorNylon, I've suspended your other account since you haven't logged on since September 06. I figure you probably forgot the password.
I'm asking for help and this is how you are going to treat me?

SGT E brought up the issue of Sham School, which anyone can read about in the Army Times, Boston Globe, or a list of several other news papers. I was simply setting the record straight.

Regarless of any of that, I did have an honest question I would like answered that doesn't pertain to cheating. Can you slow down and help a guy out before you crucify him?
The whole issue of cheating on correspondence courses is a never ending battle. You will have Soldiers who completely disagree with it and will seek out and attempt to destroy the websites that facilitate such activity. How successful they are in this attempt remains a mystery. It comes down to a matter of an individuals morality. Does the cheater not deserve the promotion? Does cheating on correspondence courses effect the Soldiers performance as an NCO? Does cheating on correspondence courses effect the Soldiers success in the military? The best answer for all three questions is possibly. But how many of us can observe any NCO's performance and say, "That guy cheated on his corresspondence courses" ? Yes it is against the law, as far as the military is concerned, but so are a number of things we as Soldiers do on a daily basis. Has anyone here never driven above the posted speed limit? Oral sex is illegal in the military, that's considered sodomy. How about under aged drinking, any new privates ever been to a dining in? Gotta love that grog, tradition be damned. The point is no one carries a set of morals so untarnished, so free of doubt that they may stand on principle and speak against an activity that lacks interigity such as cheating. As NCO's we are charged with enforcing the doctrine that governs or way of life and that ,in effect, is the foundation we stand on when or morals are in questions, as they are based on good order and discipline, which is vital to the Army as an organization. Basically "he who is without sin, cast the first stone" rule is in effect. The only ground anyone has to come out and say "hey that's wrong" is just that, the fact that it is wrong, but I'm absolutely positive we will not be so eager to point out other things that are wrong, like sodomy, and underaged drinking, and speeding, etc. Cheaters will cheat, speeders will speed, grogers will grog, sodomites will sodomer and the world will continue on it's path to certain destruction if we keep burning fossil fuels, lol, Al Gore is such a comedian. Also, who has the authority to stop the website from posting the answers? If the website is run by civilians, then UCMJ obviously does not apply. There are websites that give step by step instructions on how to make crack cocaine (go ahead and google it, not on a government network of course).
SGT. T, thanks for putting it in perspective. The cheating issue is about integrity, a core army value, and not just legality. I've never seen anything on this site (from it's owner at least) that could be construed as condoning illegal activity.

I know for certain that he disapproves of ACCP cheating.

Razor, I suspended your other account (NoNegative) because one person should not have multiple accounts (you have 3 that I know of). You've been warned repeatedly about this issue and even had a previous account banned because of it.

Cheating resources along with OPSEC violations can be found many places on the web; they will not be found here.

I'm locking this thread because it has gone drastically off topic. RazorNylon, please feel free to repost your question in a new thread.
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