I have a soldier who failed a diagnostic APFT, but his current record PT test is a 273. My problem is that my platoon sergeant says to put that he failed a diagnostic as one of his bullets on his NCOER. Can he do this even the there is a bullet right ahead of it that says he for a 273 for record? Any advice, or regulations on this?
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My advice is to tell your boss that YOU are the rater and put what you think this NCO deserves. So failed a diagnostic. So what? He had a bad day. If his record is 273, he probably isn't a crap bag.
And lookup the regs about NCOERS. The only people it talks about outside the rating chain are Sergeant Majors, and they "review" them. In the end, the RATER, SENIOR RATER, and REVIEWER can't be told what to do. Do the right thing and tell your PSG that he doesn't get to dictate what bullets on YOUR NCOs NCOERs. Now, I realize he is probably your rater, and therin lies the problem. Do what you gotta do.
His record PT test, in my opinion, should be what goes on there. AR 623-3 doesn't say anything about diagnostic APFTs but I don't see why you would put it there. It's not a record APFT.

If you put something about him scoring a 273 on his record and a failing his diag, it would just look plain stupid.
I believe you should put what that NCO deserves, you know how physically fit he is? And you are the rater. But whoever mentioned that "bad day" crap. Screw that, if I had the flu and stayed up 48hrs, I could still score 60% in each event. If you are in descent physical shape no one has that bad of a day. Whats the min standard 40 pu 50 su and like 1554, come on guys.
Diagnostic APFPT as an NCOER Bullet. It was a diagnostic APFT. Does he disserve it on his NCOER for not setting the standard for his Soldiers to follow, you bet he does!! But it was a diagnostic APFT.

But the other Soldiers that failed, did they get put into a special PT? What about the ones who failed tape? Did they have to get an appointment with the Nutritionist? Did everyone who failed the APFT or tape get counseled and flagged? If they didn’t, it is a double standard.

The other question you have to ask is when was his original APFT? Does he always do well in PT the rest of the time? If his APFT was 5 months ago and he did great or was it a month ago? Was he sick during the test? There has to be more to the situation.

If he just didn’t care, then give him a record APFT tomorrow, see how he scores. Then finish his NCOER, and put next duty Instructor, Team Leader, Recruiter.

Then ask PSG if you can have him removed from your Squad and sent somewhere else. But a diagnostic test on an NCOER. I disagree with it, for now.
I hate to comment again on the same subject, but you must really not like this guy. So, you have to put his record down. And in the next bullet, you are going to put that he failed a Diagnostic?????

If I were on a DA select board and saw that, I would probably remember the Raters name over the person I was looking at for promotion. Just my opinion.


And seven, yes I agree you should be able to pass at PT test at 180 points being drunk and with one leg also. At any given time. Smiler BUT, I have seen the biggest PT Gods go down before. I think everybody should get at least one F-up.
Hey Dar, I hear ya loud and clear about the PT failing, but I also agree there seems to be more to the story , it seems like you guys are gunning for this NCO. He scores over 270 which is a respectable score but you want to add he failed a diagnostic. I dunno sounds fishy, personal I guuess.
Army_SSG,

There are a few good points here, but honestly you never really answered SFC Jones' question fully.

Your initial post stated that your PSG wanted the bullet included, and your second statement said YOU wanted to include it. You never stated why the inclusion was needed/wanted, which honestly would have fully answered the implied part of the question.

Why would you want to put this bullet in the NCOER? What is your and your PSG's reasoning behind adding it? Does this NCO routinely fail APFT's or was this a one time thing?

If you do however put the failed Diag in the NCOER, you should also include in the bullet that her/she turned this around and made it a positive. E.g.:

o showed outstanding personal courage and motivation by recovering from failure of a Diagnostic APFT; increase XX% (whatever his/her increase in percentage for the event(s) initially failed) on XX (name of the event(s)) to exceed unit standard of 270 on next record APFT.

that bullet is slightly long and would need to be reworked some, however both of your presumed goals of a) putting the diag failure on the NCOER, and b) (your implied goal as a leader) of highlighting the fact that the APFT was passed, and the Soldier pushed through whatever issues he/she had to overcome and excel (I would say going from failure to 273 is excelling).

With all that being said, the only way I would EVER dream of putting a mention of failing an APFT on someones NCOER is if it was a re-occurring issue or in cases where you thought he/she was malingering? But thats a whole other issue/convo.

Bottom line, as a leader you should never "gun" for a Soldier, and always have THEIR and the Army's best interests at heart.

If he/she passed they shouldn't be punished for PAST mistakes.
I wouldn't put the bullet down, just my personal opinion. To go from a 270 to failing is yes, inexcusable, but it doesn't seem like it's something that the Soldier would typically do. To tarnish an NCOER for something that isn't even an official test is going a little far in my mind.

Now if you gave him a record today and he failed, well then you gotta put it on paper. But while it's a diag, you have the choice to keep his best interests at heart.
Hold on a second here. First off the whole reason behind a diagnostic APFT is to assess where the individual is at so they know what to work on for the record APFT. If the NCO fails the diagnostic, you do up a DA 4856 stating that they failed it and inform them of what areas they need to improve on and when their record APFT is going to be.

So with all that said, what makes you think it is OK to put that on their NCOER when it is an assessment of where they are at on PT so they know and you know what needs to be worked on prior to the record? If they do not get a counseling stating that they are being flagged for failing, why would it go on the NCOER? If you tripped during a diagnostic APFT and broke your leg and you didn't finish, would you expect that to go on your NCOER as failing an APFT? Doubtful.

I understand it is not spelled out in the regulation, but with that, if it is not spelled out in the regulation, go with what is BEST FOR THE SOLDIER/NCO and not your personal opinions or what you think it should be. This should be done in all matters, not just this one.
quote:
Hold on a second here. First off the whole reason behind a diagnostic APFT is to assess where the individual is at so they know what to work on for the record APFT. If the NCO fails the diagnostic, you do up a DA 4856 stating that they failed it and inform them of what areas they need to improve on and when their record APFT is going to be.

So with all that said, what makes you think it is OK to put that on their NCOER when it is an assessment of where they are at on PT so they know and you know what needs to be worked on prior to the record? If they do not get a counseling stating that they are being flagged for failing, why would it go on the NCOER? If you tripped during a diagnostic APFT and broke your leg and you didn't finish, would you expect that to go on your NCOER as failing an APFT? Doubtful.

I understand it is not spelled out in the regulation, but with that, if it is not spelled out in the regulation, go with what is BEST FOR THE SOLDIER/NCO and not your personal opinions or what you think it should be. This should be done in all matters, not just this one.


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