Monthly performance counseling,..........

Hey, sup board ...

My ole NCO was good at counciling. She was pretty much on time.

But NOW im an NCO (01Mar04), and I have 2 soldiers im responsible for.

Does anyone have an example of a good Initial Counciling ??

It would be very helpful. I wanna be a good NCO. help me help the soldiers.
I'm in enforce's brigade and he was right about the new BDE CSM was pissed about what was going on with the soldiers monthly 4856E! The only time my BN cares about 4856E is when brigade sends down a SGM to take a look at them! Its sad! I see junior soldiers sign 4856E's with the wrong dates on the! I see NCO's in my unit do 5-6 months worth of 4856E's in one day!
On a personal note, please when counseling your soldiers, take the time and effort to spell your words correctly... Nothing is worse than having your 19 yr old Private break out a red pen and make corrections. I once had a Piece o' Poop Sqd Ldr counsel me on being late to formation. In the body of the counseling she directed me to insure all that the grammer* and puncuation was good. Now at the time I was a smart ass young NCO and rebutted with how ironic it was that she instructs me to do what she herself could not. I then went on to explain to her the value of the English language. (*Needless to say the RBI turned into a 5 page typed paper, in which I regurgated some information from a TM I think).

Also, for you young Non Comms who are taking the time to learn, I applaud you. I was told that you cannot go wrong if you incorporate the seven Army Values into your counseling... I do (it doesnt have to be a template, incorporate your own style, the Mentor book tends to be a cruch to some, in the 11th ACR CSM said he better not find an NCO with that book, that an NCO ought to be able to put his/her thoughts to paper...yada yada yada...)
too2eazy,

Of course, "The Mentor" , book is just a reference. But when you are doing something pretty cut and dry like a counseling for APFT Failure, or Failure to meet the recommended body fat %, then there is only so much room for variation. Your CSM has an excellent point though. It is critical for leaders to be both well spoken and well written. Use all available references, to include advice from those who DO have counseling expereince, to formulate a counseling that shows your leadership style, uses your thoughts and your words. If you do these things you are well on your way to becoming an effective counselor of soldiers.

Good Luck and keep the questions coming, or talk about your experiences in receiving, or not receiving the appropriate counseling.

DS2000
DS2000, lets just say that my unit ALL does councilings on a monthly basis. Noone is allowed to go home is the monthly councilings are not done on time. The 1SG gets a copy of EVERY soldier's and NCO's councilings and reads them all before he will release us.

The problem with this is that he has set up a cookie cutter metod for councilings. raise PT 20 a month till 300. Shine boots better. Press uniforms better. Enroll in more college and courseponance courses. Hell a scum bag gets one that says that they worked to standard this month but need to work harder. Hell, I am the SotQ and I get the same line, verbadum.

Want to talk about a waster of personnel, time, and paper...
Yes, Rubin. It is a waste of time and paper. The purpose of monthly performance counselings is to improve and develop a soldier. You cannot hope to develop a soldier when you give him/her the exact same counseling every month. However, this is not your 1SGs fault. Even though he is enforcing therequirement of soldiers being counseled monthly, each individual NCO has the ability to create and format their own counselings which should be tailored to the individual soldier being counseled. One of those specifics should be 3 short term goals for the current quarter, ie. improve PT score, improve weapons qual, appear before SOM Board, earn so many promotion points by completing correspondence courses or college classes etc. Then, you should be creating the plan with those soldiers to help them reach those goals. It becomes so much easier to creat the plan of action and or complete the assessment or follow up when you gave the soldier some very precise steps or guidance on what they needed to do to get where they want to be. Besides discussing how their duty performance for that month, you should be guiding them towards bigger and better things.
If you give soldiers chewed up counselings, they themselves usually become chewed up counselors. Because soldiers will use your counselings as a template for their own counselings when they become NCOS. Give them a good baseline to start from.

On the whole, NCOs need to spend more time and effort in writing counseling statements for their soldiers. The more time we take now, the better our soldiers will be for it in the future.

DS2000
I have been in the Army for 3 and a half years... an NCO for 4 months now. I've been counseled monthly for my entire military experience and counsel my soldiers every month.
So see, there are NCOs out there who do their job. They did it to me, taught me well and now I pass that on to my soldiers.
There is hope.
Good to hear SGT Lifer! But this was not a "let's bash all NCO's thread", believe me. Just wanted to hear what everyone's experiences have been and how we can improve this for the future. How effective were your counselings? What type of guidance did your supervisors provide you? Let us know.

DS2000
I have been in the Army for almost 9 years now and I can certainly say I've seen far more instances where the Soldiers received little to no counselings in comparison to Soldiers receiving a monthly counseling every single month ON TIME (rather than "Hey sign these, date each one for each month since such and such date").

I am a newly promoted Sergeant. In my current unit, the only reason why the Soldiers actually have initial counselings is because we failed the Arms inspection. When I left to attend PLDC none of the Soldiers in my shop had counselings. My Platoon Sergeant had to tell ME who was lacking counselings due to the fact that the NCO's in the shop had none on file. At that point I was an E4 and had no Soldiers. I took the list from the Platoon Sergeant of all the persons who were missing counselings. One Soldier in particular had NO counselings since he was assigned to the Battalion 2 years ago! Come ON! The Sergeant in the shop, whom carries most of the responsibility on her shoulders due to the lack of effort of others, did her best to insure that everyone received an initial counseling when we all were assigned to the battalion when it was formed in November. Most of the Soldiers came from another unit, while some were remnants of the former battalion that was disbanded. This particular Sergeant made an effort, and put together packets and everyone had an initial counseling. BUT, when the two Staff Sergeants came into the shop, half of those packets were lost! Efforts made by one Sergeant lost when these NCO's came in and cleaned house. That is why it is CRUCIAL that you make copies of everything you do. We've been fighting and fighting with the Section Sergeant about counselings because we have Soldiers who are flagged for overweight (have been for months) and haven't even received a counseling for that! I vowed that when I was given a squad my Soldiers would all be counseled on time every time. I just returned from PLDC this week and my Soldiers have all received their counselings informing them of who their new Squad leader is and what is expected of them as a member of my squad. I've only had this squad for three days! I will not allow my Soldiers to be left out to dry like prior NCO's have done to me over the years. All my Soldiers counselings are in my leaders book AND in the Plt Sergeants files as well. I remember over the years, having missed out on promotion opportunities due to lack of counselings when a Platoon Sergeant changes out. Soldiers have to wait that little 90 day window to get approved to attend the board---normally. It is difficult to do that if you do not keep on top of counselings. Especially when the chain of command reviews those counseling packets before a Soldier can go to the board. I have a Corporal who just came over from the National Guard and he wants desperately to go to the board. Unfortunately I cannot allow him to go just yet, I have to wait those 90 days. But, that doesn't mean just wait and when the 90 days is up go ahead and send them. No, I have to keep up with the counselings every month as well. That way, when I send his packet up through the channels, when the 1SG and CSM review it, they can say "Yeah, he's ready or No he's not." Its no guarantee that he will be allowed to attend. But it hurts the Soldier far worse when there is NOTHING to show for his 90 days of initial work performance. I HOPE I can be a good squad leader to my Soldiers. I just wish that I had NCO's in the past who cared this much.
I agree and good attitude armyavncowgirl. I, as well was screw'd over and since being in the Army I have only received ONE counseling to my name. Now I am an NCO and I know what the right thing to do is. I will always make sure to counsel my soldiers monthly.
Well, y'all asked for a can of worms, looks like you got it. But just in case, lemme throw another cup of gas on the fire. I have had good fortune in the past with 1st line supervisors, but now I am a Cpl. team leader in a different unit, and have yet to recieve anything but a verbal initial counseling from the 1SG. My Sqd Ldr constantly bitches at his team leaders to stay current on counseling our soldiers, but none of us have yet recieved a counseling from him. We have been here varying times, from 4-8 months, and have not missed a beat with our soldiers, but have never gotten a 4856 with any of our names on it. WTF? Oh well, at least I have had good NCO's in the past who have shown me the proper way to do things, so my soldiers are squared away.
I am an E-5 who has been doing monthly performance counseling statements since I became a team leader but I am yet to see anything happen with those counselings. I turn them in to the Plt Sgt who then puts a copy in the soldier's packet and gives the 1st Sgt a copy, so my question is what else is to be done with the counselings?

thanks.
Alot of times nothing. But if a soldier is performing above the standard, month in - month out then when it comes times for a waiver for promotion...you have DOCUMENTATION that your soldier exceeded the standards. Which the 1SG and CO will look favorably upon, if evaluated effeciently. There might be another Joe...who is just as good of a troop, but if his SGT did not put it on paper, well then....its his/her word against YOUR documentation...and YOUR joe gets pinned!! Its a good feeling....when deserved...and it all works out like that.

On the other hand, if you have a dirt bag soldier who cussed you out, fails to meet the minumum standards and is insubordinate..then you have the documentation to take his/her pay, or initiate chapter paperwork. If you dont cousel the soldier, it never happened basically.

basically....if it wasn't documented, it didn't happen.

I might have misunderstood something tho....were u asking the PURPOSE of the tangible 4856???? (i explained) or where do they get filed or something?? LOL
I have a question that is a bit off topic.
Recently, in the month of Aug I had an ankle surgery which I am currently recovering from. Shortly after the surgery I was asked my the 1SG to be the training and schools NCO at our company. I gladly accepted this position, with the knowledge that I was taking on a lot of responsibility. I knew that if i was trained correctly for the duties I would be just fine. About a month goes by and the stress level was getting a little high, manageable but high. It was ok though because I got the job done. I was there later than my fellow soldiers in my rank, and I worked my FPOC off all the time. I was new to completing training slides,training schedules, school requests, conducting APFT's as any NCOIC would do. I am a Private First Class. I was trained on a very small amount of information, not including training slides, apft, ranges or anything like that. However I was always willing to learn and realized that anything i learn as a young private can be used later in my career. The training slides looked like they were in a different language. I tried though. When they were presented to my 1SG and Commander( REAR-D) they were given back a few times with changes and updates...Some were my error, and some were just changes coming down from BN. All i ever wanted was to be shown directly how to accomplish this task. I went to SFC, SSG, another SSG, and a SGT. Nobody could sit me down and show me what RIGHT looks like. Than, the inevitable happened. The previous training and schools NCO returned from con-leave after 30 days. Thats when the fun began. I am not in an infantry unit, I am in a transportation/support brigade. So their
are females working along side the male soldiers. I noticed that one of the male SSG's was speaking very inappropriatley with one of the office female lower enlisted. I mentioned something to the EO rep in the company and he stated he would look into it. That was the beginning of my hell. After that happened, My first line supervisor/SGT who came back from con leave started treating me differently. He started acting WAY more strict and hard on me. He stated new rules, new break times. Basically telling me im a S$%t bag as well. I was very confused at this point in time. I asked reluctantly why all of a sudden, he stated not as a response to that, but later in the conversation that he was aware that i made an EO complaint. How he knew I spoke to the rep, i dont know. But the complaint I made wasnt even about HIM. It was an E6 it was about. the company has a real problem with senior fraternizating with lower enlisted. At this time i knew something was wrong. It wasnt right for him to suddenly change how he treated me because I made a complaint. Also, he began treating the females a lot differently as well. He was VERY VERY HARD on me, and would let the females get away with everything and anything.. Speaking to NCO's with disrespect, eating at their desk (which i wasnt allowed to do), using the command entrance. And just overall treating them superior to me. Holding them to different standards. The training slides I was trying to get done correctly, he told me to go to BN and ask A Master Sergeant how to do them. I was really shocked at this. But i did as i was told, the Master Sergeant wasnt there so I wasnt shown how to do it. I thought this was wrong. I spoke to a few NCO's and asked their advice. I concluded that in my opinion this was the beginning of a favoritism, and gender descrimination case. I filed an informal EO complaint. NOTE- i did not want to do this, and I am normally not the type of soldier who would do this, but I am a strong believer of Our ARMY and its regulations. I am a college student,with 600 correspondance hours, actively trying to get a waiver for SPC. I am very serious about my career. The females who were being treated exceptionally, one was facing UCMJ, and the other had been on a NO PT profile for about 8-10 months...No surgery just a temporary profile. (My profile is another issue he brings up from time to time) I was being treated as if i was a crap soldier, in which I feel in no way I am. So i filed the complaint, and he brought me in our office again(my first line supervisor) AGAIN he claimed to know I filed a complaint..This time he was correct, it was about him.. However i felt it was'nt right he approached me about the complaint. In this meeting he explained everything the way he always does, where he tried to talk me off, or leave me no possible way to say anything with out him turning it against me. He stated I should have been a man about it and not gone to EO. I did go to him several times, and tell him he treats females differently. His response was that his leadership style demands people are treated differently. I spoke with E0 and the 1SG and requested I be moved. I made sure I told them that I was proud of how hard I worked, and they all thought I did a good job. Aside from blaming me for the training slides not being done correctly, my response was I was never trained, and i was told that, that wasnt an excuse.." as long as their is google, the fact that you werent trained is not an excuse"

. YESTERDAY- i went to my old platoon Sgt and I ASKED her for a counseling, being it that it was the 4th, and I hadnt recieved one. I was hoping to get a nice counseling for my efforts an accomplishments in an E-5 sgt slot as a PFC. He told me that the my counseling wasnt done by her but done by my first line supervisor who I had filed the complaint against. I knew from that point that it was unfair from the start.
When he read the counseling statement, every single thing he wrote was negative, Everything. And I wrote my remarks, and he scrubbed every line I wrote and disagreed with it, And read every line he wrote, and tried to sell me on how it was 100% correct. I was discouraged. I worked so so hard in this position. I feel with everything inside me that this is his retaliation against me. I am contemplating making the EO complaint filed last week a FORMAL complaint. I have no negative counselings and no UCMJ. My last Squad leader who went to Ranger BAT told me I was his best soldier hes had. I hold myself to a high standard and always exceed the standards.

I guess what im asking is, what do you think of this? Is this normal? Am I wrong or right? how to bounce back from this

sorry about the spelling and punctuation.
thanks for reading!!!
Sounds to me like he's taking reprisal against you for making a complaint which is completely wrong. I would go ahead and go forth with the formal complaint and ensure that you let the EOA know that you made the informal complaint and everything that was done to you in return for making that complaint.
Unfortunately no one likes EO complaints unless something serious is involved. Monthly counselings are fairly unimportant unless you end up doing something wrong down the road and need to fall back on a bunch of good months however. Personally I wouldn't have signed the monthly counseling and if anything came down on me I would explain why. It would have been easier if you would have gone to the 1SG or commander or the E6 off the bat but since that's gone just talk to someone and see if it can be worked out without making another EO complaint.

Especially because it's obvious whomever you're making the complaints to doesn't care to do anything besides say it was you.
I though it was reprisal as well..Im very low enlisted, and I know where i stand on the totem pole.. I respect the ranks sincerely, however I am willing to admit I am afraid of what he may do to me, or try to do to me. Career wise. I wish he never started with this.. And yes @ eyeinthesky i wanted to just sign it and get over it...and i did sign it. But i wrote my remarks also, 2 pages...But i felt that if i let it go, that i would let him win and basically agree to all the BS he wrote in the counseling statement. I did a great job in there as a PFC. he literally decided to write everything he could possibly think of that was negative and included it. I had an Nco stop by my house, and she took a look at the counseling. The first thing she said was this is completely negative...and that you have a valid arguement.. She said there should be a sustainment section as well as i dont know what the opposite would be but...downfalls or shortcomings? I feel that if i let this go, that he wins...And im the dumb little private who was taken advantage of. The way he talks and looks at and treats females is disgusting. Its rediculous.. But the whole company is a joke in the same ways, and other ways. Im trying to get transferred to another company within the Bn. Hopefully something will come of this.. and yes i plan on making the complaint formal on monday morning. I believe that he is retaliating against me for the 1st complaint in which he thought i made, and then the 2nd complaint in which i did make on him. Its not right.....What do you think the outcomes could be? And have any of you ever seen anything quite like this.. ? THANKS very much for your input, even though im a PFC and your probably NCOS...it makes me feel a lot better to know that their are some good leaders out there, who will take a stand against another fellow NCO if they are in the wrong

THANKS AGAIN
BY DS 2000

Posted 18 November 2003 21:09
How many of you soldiers out there actually receive a monthly performance counseling from your 1st line supervisors? Out of those soldiers,.........how many of you have received counselings that you feel are helping you develop as a soldier?

For you NCOs,.........how many of you have received your initial counseling within the first 30 days of your rating period? How many of your supervisors took the time to sit down with you and explain the NCOER Counseling Checklist and how it is used,.....informed you of your rating scheme,.......and or provided you with examples of what constitutes a SUCCESS and and EXCELLENT rating as it would pertain to the specific place you work or the specific job you do on a day to day basisi?

I have a sinking suspicion that I'm not really going to like what I hear,......but I asked the question so,.........answer away!

Also,.......to the NCOs,......what do you know and understand the regulation/guidance to be in regards to the requirement for performance counselings for E-6s and below,.........and where did you get that guidance from? Again,......just a hunch,.....but I'm curious to see the responses.
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I am an Infantry SSG who started as a Forward Observer and getting ready to hit my 12 year mark. I have bought books and software helping to do counselings and yet every BN seems to have their own way that it the right way. I feel they believe this because it is "what they want to believe" and they cannot except that they are wrong. Just my two cents.

1. I am on a deployment now with the WORST BN and Company Commander I have ever had. For your first question though, as a Squad Leader I a required to counsel my soldiers monthly, which does occur.

2. In regards to your second question. I received my initial counseling within 30 days. As for the NCOER checklist that is a negative. Which creates a problem for me because I have all Specialists in my squad except for a PFC who was busted and moved from another platoon to my squad. I have never been informed of my rating scheme in my entire 11 years in the Guard. As for the bullet examples in regards to SUCCESS and EXCELLENT; yes examples have been given however when pushed up, the CSM tries to influence the NCOER or not accept it, to which, I have expressed great bullheadedness in changing the bullets that are qualitative in form and stated that it is against regulations for higher to influence the bullets. THE GUARD IS POLITICALLY CUTTHROAT and that is where a lot of micromanagement comes from on that issue.

3. In regards to your final question...I have been failed across the board as a soldier and an NCO. WLC only touched on this stuff and two weeks is not enough. Some sort of classes and a test with an instructor as if you were giving the instructor a counseling as one of your soldiers should be implemented in the school house. Hands on, train as you fight.

On another note, 7 out of the 9 guys I have do not want to learn or be given any advice. I have been failed so much that I try to give my guys the lessons I wish I had been taught but they do not seem to care. I have been advised by my commander that I am a 100% NCO who expects too much from my soldiers and that I need to learn how to deal and accept 40% soldiers. I CAN NOT DO THAT. I am a keeper of the Standard. I will not recommend my Team Leaders for Promotion to SGT when they take no initiative whatsoever which requires me to tell them everything to do on implied tasks. I have counseled them as to what is expected and what to do yet they continue to fail to get their teams up and clean the latrine or barracks on a daily basis. I would fire my one CPL (who is Infantry like most of us) but he is the only CPL and my COC Will not back me in putting a SPC in command of him. So I am stuck with a CPL who has stated he is getting out in six months and he is done with the military. My other team leader is good, needs some teaching and will listen but he gets push back from the guys because he is a cook, not 11B. Geez, what am I to do? Does it sound like I need to soften up in expecting implied tasks to be carried out?
quote:
Originally posted by gonzo 59:
what is the proper and legal way to correct missed counselings for Soldiers that we are in charge of?


Start doing them.

How are you going to go back and fix crap that did or didn't happen a while back?

Don't place blame or tell the Soldiers what should or shouldn't have been done- just start doing the right thing.
I ALWAYS make sure that I keep up on my counselings for ALL of my Soldiers. In regards to receiving counselings from my superiors, the question can't be answered with just a yes or no answer. When I first arrived at my new Unit, I made sure I sat down with my superiors and asked all the questions that I would have covered in a counseling of one of my Soldiers.
I have an Ultimate NCO.com account and it is an invaluable tool that I use to keep up on ALL of my paperwork.

The regulation and guidance for counseling can be found in FM 7-22.7 The Army Noncommissioned Officer Guide and AR 600-8-19 Enlisted Promotions and Reductions. And where did I learn all of this you ask? Again, my answer is at Ultimate NCO.com ...
As a NCO new to active duty, coming from the reserves, I am finding new challenges every day. My newest challenge is finding the information on the key points of discussion for counselings. This would be for the monthly counselings. I know there are a few bullets that are required a couple are Performance, APFT, Upcoming events. I do not know the rest and what verbage to use for each area. I know this thread is old but found it through a google search and would like some help on this topic. So far I have been diligent on getting my counselings done. Although it has been a rough road. I also have the NCO books from clothing sales; the mentor and the writer. Unfortunately it they do not have the lingo I need or is incomplete. Any help would be appreciated.
One thing I would like to add. If you are a Secialist and counselings are not being done on a regular basis then do them yourself for your team. This will only make you a better soldier and will show your leadership your competency as a leader. Good bad or indifferent take it for what it's worth.
quote:
Originally posted by murankar:
One thing I would like to add. If you are a Secialist and counselings are not being done on a regular basis then do them yourself for your team. This will only make you a better soldier and will show your leadership your competency as a leader. Good bad or indifferent take it for what it's worth.


That is probably some of the best advice I have heard after reading this forum topic. However, I'm thinking I might just actually counself myself, put in my own corrective action for myself and then just have my NCO sign off on it since he isn't doing his job and nor was my last previous NCO. Just a thought.
NCO's and aspiring NCO's,

I have been reading this old thread for a while now, and I feel that it should be brought up again. I will go ahead and provide my current situation I am dealing with.

To talk a little bit about myself before I being:
I serve in the U.S. Army as a 68S Preventive Medicine Technician (PMS soldier!) for six years
I have completed Airborne School, WLC, technical certifications, won soldier of the month boards and I am the soldier of the year on my installation. I am the Section Leader of Environmental Health here on my base which falls under a branch of Occupational Health services, I am responsible for all RMW and HW waste removal procedures and guidelines for this facility and I am also the event coordinator for our fundraising committee. I am also one of the PT instructors for both morning and Remedial P.T. (not a PT Stud, but I will run you to the ground).
My biggest issue and my current hurdle at the moment is that it has been literally over six months since I have received any performance counseling’s. I never received counseling when I won soldier of the year. When I was under my prior NCO, He had informed me that if I am not receiving any counseling’s, then it is a good thing and I shouldn't have anything to worry about. Now that our organizational structure has changed, I have been put under a new NCO back in September and it is not 20 November 2012 and I have still received no counseling, not even an initial counseling as far as his expectations (not to mention he got thrown into a field he has no idea about since he is only a medic)!
I have repeatedly asked both my prior and current NCOs to see my counseling packet (to make sure it didn't just "disappear") in order to see what was my last statement in the packet (which I asked during the change in command structure). I was told that I will get to see it but I have not even seen it as of to date!
The only counseling that I received was a chew out by this new NCO who does not know my job, got thrown into a field that he is new to. Apparently I had an attitude problem when it came to conducting my inspections on civilians who worked in the food service industry who are privileged to serve on this installation (one of my functions is a Health Inspector, my job is to find anything that could possibly make someone sick, identify it, and make a recommendation while docking it off on the paperwork for them and letting them know how to improve.) That is something I have been managing after coming from a combat unit to a non-combat unit.
My main question this morning, as I am on staff duty unable to sleep is the following:

1. Given the situation, would you recommend that I take this immediately up the chain of command or wait until the end of this month to see if I receive counseling?
2. I feel that I have more than proven myself and to others that I can be a leader and I am ready to take the next step in becoming an NCO. Should my attitude be the only thing my NCO holds against me for not being recommended for promotion?
3. Would you recommend I just start counseling myself and my section member to display that I am trying to one step above and beyond?
4. There are some NCO's here whom I consider to be "good o'l boys". Since there is only one E-7 and the rest are E-5's, do you believe that the junior NCOs are preventing soldier from excelling in their career?
If someone could answer these questions I would most certainly appreciate it. I look forward to your response. Thank you for your time!

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