NCOER after FG Article 15

I received a FG Article 15 for sexually harassing a Soldier spouse and now I am being told I have to receive a relief for cause.

My issue is that during the rating period I was only investigated, charges were brought after and I was punished after the rating period.

Doesn't that mean that my next NCOER will have to be negative?

Just trying to get a sense of what the right answer is here.

I was always taught that if my reduction to E5 happened outside the rating period I can't talk about it in the NCOER.
Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by intelnco06:
I received a FG Article 15 for sexually harassing a Soldier spouse and now I am being told I have to receive a relief for cause.

My issue is that during the rating period I was only investigated, charges were brought after and I was punished after the rating period.

Doesn't that mean that my next NCOER will have to be negative?

Just trying to get a sense of what the right answer is here.

I was always taught that if my reduction to E5 happened outside the rating period I can't talk about it in the NCOER.


You have bigger issues to worry about than a relief for cause NCOER.
Thank you for telling me things I already know.

All of you stated the obvious, I didn't bring this out to get critized.

First off, Im not getting chaptered, I would have been out already if that were happening,

Secondly I have more than 6 years in so a chapter board would have to vote me out.

Third, I was punished through Article 15, not court martial, and for that I'm thankful.

Thank you for rushing to judgment and not helping me out with a question, this is why I hate the NCO Corps, because all of you judge people based on what you hear, not the facts.

None of you know me or the details. so go jump in a lake.
quote:
Originally posted by intelnco06:
I received a FG Article 15 for sexually harassing a Soldier spouse and now I am being told I have to receive a relief for cause.




1.That is the detail that matters. Hence, why you are being criticized.

2. You ARE going to get chaptered. Patience...

3. Chapter board will most likely vote to push you out. Times are tough, army is downsizing. You no longer fit the mold of the ideal soldier.

4. Dunno how that happened.

5. Again, we judge based off the info placed before us. See first bullet.

6. I don't like fish swimming with me.

In any event, whichever NCOER you receive, you will receive a NO on one or several of the army values blocks and based off that, you will surely be chaptered out.
I am confused on the last line. As NCOs of course we are always in a rating period, I am just confused a little on what you are asking. So I made up the below scenario hoping it might reflect your current situation.

Lets say, you are business as usual, then the harassment occurs on make believe 20 July. The unit begins to investigate. During the investigation you are due for a NCOER (annual, change or rater, whatever) with thru date of make believe 30 July. Now we are at make believe 30 August and your command initiates and adminstratively punishes you with an ART 15. You are told you will be demoted and relieved of your current duty position, hence the Relief for Cause NCOER. Now that Relief for Cause NCOER will be negative in nature and have a rating period of 1 August to 30 August. You will then begin a clean rating period as a SGT on 1 Sept.

Now there are always loop holes and ways to phrases things so it is possible for your NCOER during the investigation to be negative as well as the Relief for Cause.
I was suspended so my thru date is 17 May.

The investigation closed after 17 May and the punishment occurred after 17 May.

The UCMJ occurred after 17 May.

I wasn't relieved for cause, I was suspended and moved out of my section pending the results of 15-6. which is why I'm due a change of rater. None of my issues, 15-6, or Article 15 or the reduction came durring the rating period.

That is why I'm confused.
You are saying that a NCOER should have been completed with a thru date of 17 May for a Change of Rater when you were removed from your section?

If that is correct then your new period would then begin 18 May. Since your ART 15 occured during the current rating period 18 May it will be negative. It does not matter when the event occured, it only matters when then punishment is given.

Also, if they have been stalling on completing the 17 May CoR pending the outcome, then it should not be filed. They should run your thru date up to your punishment and submit a Releif for Cause NCOER. You should have retained the same rating chain until after the 15-6 was concluded and the ART 15 occured.

You are correct, if they have not filed the CoR with a thru date of 17 May, they cannot directly address the ART 15 and subsequent punishment since it occurred after the thru date, but there are ways to address the issue on it without addressing the issue and still giving you a needs improvement and no blocking you for values.
I get the 17 May thing, more questions though.

Did you receive an NCOER prior to 17 May (i.e. an Annual)? Or did the unit wait to find out what the results of the investigation would be? Also were you say you were "suspended and moved", was the suspension the result of the 15-6? And did you get permanently moved following your punishment?


1. If you did NOT receive an NCOER prior to 17 May:

a. When was your previous NCOER completed (what is the FROM date on your newest NCOER)?
b. What was the THRU date supposed to be on your last NCOER?
c. How many months has it been since your last NOCER THRU date?

2. If you DID receive an NCOER prior to 17 May:

a. What was that THRU date?
b. What type of NCOER was it?

These questions will help me explain the courses of action that would need to take place, it will be in depth, so i dont want to spend the energy explaining BOTH if I dont need to.

That is unless everyone else wants to hear how I would personally handle both situations...
quote:
Originally posted by intelnco06:
Thank you for telling me things I already know.

All of you stated the obvious, I didn't bring this out to get critized.

First off, Im not getting chaptered, I would have been out already if that were happening,

Secondly I have more than 6 years in so a chapter board would have to vote me out.

Third, I was punished through Article 15, not court martial, and for that I'm thankful.

Thank you for rushing to judgment and not helping me out with a question, this is why I hate the NCO Corps, because all of you judge people based on what you hear, not the facts.

None of you know me or the details. so go jump in a lake.



so sad that you could do that and not get kicked out of the Army.
You know what, I decided to do a little research to see if my course of action was the right one, and I was slightly appaled at how EASY it is to find the EXACT info you need within AR 623-3 and DAPAM 623-3. Do some googling next time, dont be lazy with your career. I will help you out this time (all BOLD by me):

AR 623-3
CH 3–55. “Relief for Cause” report (DA Form 2166–8)
A code 05, “Relief for Cause” NCOER, is required when an NCO is relieved for cause. An NCO can be relieved for cause regardless of the rating period involved; however, a waiver is required to render “Relief for Cause” NCOERs covering a period of less than 30 days. Relief for cause is defined as the removal of an NCO from a specific duty or assignment based on a decision by a member of the NCO’s chain of command or supervisory chain. A “Relief for Cause” occurs when the NCO’s personal or professional characteristics, conduct, behavior, or performance of duty warrants removal in the best interest of the U.S. Army (see AR 600–20). Additional considerations for these reports are described below.

a. If the relief does not occur on the date the NCO is removed from the duty position or responsibilities, the suspended period of time between the removal and the relief will be nonrated time included in the period of the relief report. The suspended NCO will not render or receive evaluation reports, until his or her status (and, thus, his or her ability to serve as a rating official) is decided. The published rating chain at the time of the relief will render the report; no other report will be due on the rated NCO during this nonrated period.
b. Cases where the rated NCO has been suspended from duties pending an investigation will be resolved by the chain of command as expeditiously as possible to reduce the amount of nonrated time involved. Every effort will be made to retain the established rating chain, with the NCO performing alternate duties under that rating chain, until the investigation is resolved. If the rated NCO is suspended and subsequently relieved, the period of suspension is nonrated time. If the rated NCO is suspended and subsequently placed back to duty (not relieved), the period of suspension is recorded as evaluated time on the next NCOER.
c. If a “Relief for Cause” evaluation report is contemplated on the basis of an informal AR 15–6 investigation, the referral procedures contained in that regulation will be followed before the act of initiating or directing the relief. This does not preclude a temporary suspension from assigned duties pending application of the procedural safeguards contained in AR 15–6. A “Relief for Cause” report will be the final action after all investigations have been completed and a determination made.
d. The evaluation report must specifically indicate who directed the relief of the rated NCO and the rating official directing the relief will clearly explain the reason for the relief in his or her portion of the NCOER (see DA Pam 623–3 for instructions and procedural guidance that apply to completing a “Relief for Cause” evaluation report).
e. If the relief is directed by an official other than the rater or senior rater, the official directing the relief will describe the reasons for the relief in an enclosure to the report (see fig 3–4).
f. The minimum rater and senior rater qualifications and the minimum rating period are 30 rated days. The fundamental purpose of this restriction is to allow the rated NCO a sufficient period of time to react to performance counseling during each rating period. Authority to waive this 30–day minimum rating period and rater and senior rater qualification period in cases of misconduct is granted to the first general officer in the chain of command or an officer having general court-martial jurisdiction over the relieved NCO. The waiver approval will be in memorandum format and attached as an enclosure to the report (see para 3–35 and fig 3–5).
quote:
Originally posted by JstlikeU:
Does a chapter out go through a chain of commands, if so who has the most influence if a Soldier is going to be chaptered out? Also, exactly how reliable is a Specialist information when it comes to him knowing what's going to happen?


Ok....Real quick advice here. Before pushing the "Post Now" button on your screen, take some time to read your own statement prior to submitting. Big Grin

Anywhoo....Yes, a chapter does go through several approval levels before it is finalized. Several sets of eyes are on the chapter, depending on what type of discharge is being recommended.

Your second question leads me to believe that you are a junior soldier and may be asking questions from a SPC. Correct?

You should be asking your team/squad/platoon leader these questions. They can and will point you in the right direction.

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