Possibly no graduation due to knee injury

I have attempted to research this issue in the forum and found things a little fuzzy, I am hoping that some wise people might be able to clarify things for me.

My son is nearing the end of 68W AIT training at FSH. All has been good, great even. He has a 93% average (just shy of honor grad, or he would have been), all "gos" on skills, always passed APFT, no disciplinary issues of any kind. His weight is perfect, never a concern. He is a very fine soldier.

He felt his knee "pop" a little during PT prior to Christmas exodus. He tried to work through it and it was really hurting, he finally went in and got seen at sick call. His meniscus seemed inflamed but they didn't think it was a tear. He was put on no-running profile and the timing was actually good since he could rest it over the break. He was home for two weeks and with mom watching over him only did situps/pushups and completely rested the knee. He took his NSAIDS and was compliant all instructions. It seemed better. As a former swimmer/water polo player his knees have never bothered him and this whole thing looked like a fluke. He returned to AIT and was then doing up/downhill runs of some kind and bam, hurt it again. It is very painful.

His platoon sergeant told him to either suck it up or go back to medical and not graduate as the Army has plenty of soldiers and doesn't need ones who can't run. He tried gutting it out for a day or so and finally caved and went in to be seen. Still same diagnosis. He begged the doctor, saying he just wants to graduate with his class,and the doctor wrote out two things: "Use prior diagnostic APFT run score" and "run at own pace". So my son was hopeful.
He went back and gave document to his platoon sergeant who said it was unacceptable to have both of those directions written as they are contradictory and he had better have his !%& up at 0400 in the morning to take the APFT that was scheduled. Of course, he reported for that, passed the situps/pushups and was instructed him NOT to run, with no further explanation or conversation. He was again hopeful!

Later that day -- they put him on the list as a PT failure. He was told to pass the record APFT that is in one week OR return to sick call and expect to not graduate and be held over in Hotel company with all the "fatty" PT failures. HIs choice. And that he can just plan on being chaptered out with a "failure to meet physical standards" separation. So we are just praying hard his knee heals, not sure what else to do, he feels called to serve and will not consider going back to medical after being told it will be the end.

This seems illogical but don't want to debate that -- I guess I am looking for confirmation that if he does not pass next week he is truly done for. I will need to get my head around that so I can be supportive in helping him move forward. I am encouraging him to continue to keep his head down, work hard, and stay mentally tough. He is devasted, though. This is the first time I have ever seen him stop believing in himself. Again with the logic: he is injured! He is not fat, lazy, or otherwise unskilled! What am I missing here? Any insight would be so appreciated.
Original Post
This is shady to say the least. You son has not failed a pt test and they are threatening to chapter him. He needs to go to the doctor and get to the root of the problem. He may not graduate when he wants to but he is truly hurt he needs to get fixed. Now if he just wants to graduate and go to his unit then he just needs to suck it up. I would vote for the first option and get fixed. They cannot chapter him out just for being hurt. Now if he tries to take a pt test and fails that is a different story. Bottom line he needs to go to the doctor and try to get an MRI if not structural damage then just rest. Follow the profile to a tee. If it is for 30 days then he will not be able to take a pt test for 60 days. Tell your son to not be stubborn and see a doctor. If his PSG continues to be shady there avenues that you can explore. Good luck and keep us informed of the situation.
Thank you very much for the reply. I asked him about this, but he says he has been told he IS a PT failure. And is told that if he goes to medical for any further workup, he will be chaptered out. He says the only way he can win is to pass the run next week. The other two situations are losing ones.

I said exactly what you say above "they cannot chapter you out for being hurt".

BTW, he says he can tough out everything still to come before graduation, kneeling on it in trauma lanes, etc., doesn't feel good but he can do it. It is the running that is the worst. He dismissed me as not understanding the realities of the situation and that was the end of our phone call. I will be lucky if I speak to him again inside of a week.

He is only 18 years old for God's sake, I really don't want him to ruin his knee.

I hold on to some kind of bizarre hope that they are just trying to keep him mentally strong by not giving him any excuses. Could they be doing that? Although since he has not been a problem in any way...I just don't get it.
As shady as it sounds..it is correct..all soldiers must pass an APFT to gradute from AIT.. faiuler to do so will mean he will not grduate..he will be placed in a hold over company where he will be evaluated..if it is determined with a little bit of time he will heal (a week or two) he will gradute with the next class...if it will take more time..then he will be chapterd from the army...the best thing to do is to got to the DOCs and have them fix it...even if he is chapterd they will still fix his leg...it would suck to be chapterd out..but his only options are to Pass the PT test and move on..or not pass and hope for the best..
"all soldiers must pass an APFT to graduate from AIT"

I want to clarify, he has passed his APFT, he has passed every single one in BCT and AIT until becoming injured.

It seems shameful that any soldier, especially a good one, will be chaptered out if they have anything wrong with them that takes more than a week or two to fix? Something they did not have prior to enlistment, and that they received as a direct result of training and not from their own negligence or carelessness.
Well, I would think at least one of his tests during all these months would have been a record one, but I don't know and am not sure I'll speak to him soon. He is a big boy and will figure it out. I just wanted to be well-informed.

I appreciate the replies but I definitely feel discouraged.
I agree it sucks..and it a jacked up system a good soldier has passed at lest 4 PT test by this time..gets hurt due to training..and is eather chapterd or recycled...but he must pass his end of course PT test to graduate.if anything is wrong with him..the army will fix any problem..he recived while in the army.
What sounds shady to me is big baby running to his mom telling her a one sided story and mommy coming onto the forum fighting for her little angel as if she has a clue to what kind of Soldier he is, his reputation in AIT, or how "skilled" or well he has been performing.

Its a sad story, I guess, but a BCT or AIT is not going to release a Soldier to another unit if he/she is not going to be able to perform his/her duties to their fullest ability, get over it.

Your son is training to be a Combat Medic, but everytime he runs his knee pops and he's in pain. Sounds like he is going to have trouble running around in combat, aiding his Soldiers, wearing his aid-bag, and his gear. Pretty useless.

Who told you your son was potentially, the "honor grad" of his class? I don't know if you know this but 9 times out of 10, in military schools a 90% avg is the norm, while the honor grad and distinguish honor grad have dame near perferct scores, I'm just saying.
Wow, Barbarian you are a real sweetie, thanks for the friendliness.
Is asking a question and looking for information "fighting for my little angel"?
I didn't say he was going to be THE "honor grad", did you not read my post? I was not told by anyone that he was an honor grad just by the commander's graduation letter that top 10% would be honor grads. He would have missed that top 10% by a bit but still good results.
I am a really nice person who thought I could get some info, the wrong person to be hanging out here, clearly.
Y'all have a real lovely evening.
quote:
Originally posted by momof68w:
He has a 93% average (just shy of honor grad, or he would have been.



Did you read your post?

I know you don't know any better mom, but usually there is a

Distinguished Honor Graduate (top graduate)

Honor Graduate (runner up to DHG)

and Commadant's List or those graduating with honors (the top 10%)

It's just always funny to me when parents and wives come on here talking up their significant other as if they are the greatest thing since sliced bread and the truth is you really don't know.
Yep, well I suppose I have my terms wrong, it is graduating with honors he would have just missed. Again with the meanness. I do think he is great, glad you think that's funny. I don't think he deserves special treatment. I was just trying to get info.

Right now, I am trying to figure out how to delete my account/profile, since this is not place for me. My skin is nowhere thick enough! You seem to know a lot -- if you know how I can do that please pass it on.

Thanks.
Thanks Barbarian for your tactful dealings with our new member.

Mom, he does make a valid point in his crude way. What we have is a telling of a story from the point of view of a brand new private as interpreted by a civilian.

This is not the first time we have seen this sort of thing, and we know that the facts can be easily misinterpreted out of nothing more sinister than inexperience.

Almost everyone on this board has been to basic training, and we remember how ignorant we were on the ways of the Army.

For the APFT, my understanding is that all of them in such schools are diagnostic, including the final.

I've met a number of people who were separated from IET for similar conditions (broken foot, broken hip). Temporary conditions in an IET environment can lead to discharge. I suspect his cadre may be aware of this and are trying to get him through it so that he can stay in the Army and hopefully fix it later on. If he is so separated, his chances of having an Army career drop dramatically. This is not the case with IET graduates, but for those who have yet to complete training the tolerance is low.
quote:
Who told you your son was potentially, the "honor grad" of his class? I don't know if you know this but 9 times out of 10, in military schools a 90% avg is the norm, while the honor grad and distinguish honor grad have dame near perferct scores, I'm just saying.


I'd like to know where you pulled these numbers from. Your ass is what I assume.

90% Averages are the norm? Near perfect scores for honor grad? B.S.
A "tool" and an "ass" are two things I am not, LOL, but OK.

Generally speaking military test are easy.

Generally speaking military test are multiple choice.

Generally speaking if you fail a military test you retest and only then when you fail the retest do you face serious consequence.

From NCOES to the additional military training I've done even if instructed by civilians, the DHG and Honor Grad have held Test Avgs or Grade Avgs in the 95-99 ball park. Everyone else is more 80%-90%. I've never been to a course or school in the military scoring below 70% was acceptable

I feel sorry for you that I offended you by offending someone else through my honesty.
Last NCOES I did the honor grad and distinguished honor grad both scored 100% academically (APFT decided it). I scored 98.5% and wasn't on the list.

Now behave civilly or I will suspend accounts. I just PCSed and I've got too much on my plate to be dealing with these blatant TOS violations.
quote:
Originally posted by TheBarbarian1532:
A "tool" and an "ass" are two things I am not, LOL, but OK.

Generally speaking military test are easy.

Generally speaking military test are multiple choice.

Generally speaking if you fail a military test you retest and only then when you fail the retest do you face serious consequence.

From NCOES to the additional military training I've done even if instructed by civilians, the DHG and Honor Grad have held Test Avgs or Grade Avgs in the 95-99 ball park. Everyone else is more 80%-90%. I've never been to a course or school in the military scoring below 70% was acceptable

I feel sorry for you that I offended you by offending someone else through my honesty.


Some schools I would generally agree on, though most is no where near accurate. Especially not for a 90% norm. Most people don't give two shits about it to put fourth the effort. I've been through a fair amount of schools myself and it's an honest assessment.

Also generally speaking if someone fails a test and then passes the re-test they move forward with the lowest passing score allowable. MOS training is far different from other schools in the military anyways.
Wow, some of you guys are ruthless. Why are we speaking to these folks this way? They have every right to come on here and ask an intelligent question. Think back to before you were in the army...Everything that was told to you from a service member was at face value, right? Of course it was because we had not been associated with the army at that time. The lack of professionalism displayed here will probably drive these concerned parents into thinking that we are a bunch of ruthless tyrants. To the concerned parents dont let a few know it alls drive you to thinking we, as an orginization are a bunch of bullies. I unfortunately do not know the exact right answer for this question; however I would say that just going off what I remember from 5 years ago that if you had an actual injury that you would probably be chaptered.
@ DaddyWarcrimes

I will play nicely

@EyeintheSky

quote:
Most people don't give two shits about it to put fourth the effort. I've been through a fair amount of schools myself and it's an honest assessment.


What schools are these you have attended where the Soldiers in attendence did not care at all to put forth the effort?? I'm not talking about some 40hr week course such as Combatives 1 or Combat Lifesaver. The only time I have seen people slack off are at NCOES and they still pass fairly easy. At everyschool I have attended the DHG and HG has earned a near perfect score.

quote:
Also generally speaking if someone fails a test and then passes the re-test they move forward with the lowest passing score allowable


I never denied this but usually outside of the military if you fail a test, you've failed. The End.

quote:
MOS training is far different from other schools in the military anyways.


Are talking about training or testing. It's testing, still, your test written test will more than likely be multiple choice.
Well, so true that my son's side of "story" is the only one I am hearing. Doesn't really mean he is a big baby, ha! I don't know where I said he was a whiner who needed special treatment. He will figure it out, AGAIN, I was just trying to get some info and context around the situation.

I can clearly understand the the Army wants well-prepared and trained soldiers in each MOS who can do their work effectively. Not ones who can't perform and so suck the system dry getting treatment for injuries when they'll never be able to do their job. Makes total sense and shines a light on the sacrifices you all make to serve -- you can get hurt! And if you get hurt during IET it is a sad story. I am praying he passes and graduates.

Thanks to those of you who were courteous. There is always a neutral (or even nice) way to convey bad news. Others -- you can be a jerk from your computer, that's your right.

I am regretful I posted a question to begin with, it was a moment of weakness! It won't happen again. Smiler I hope you all have a mom who cares for you!
quote:
What schools are these you have attended where the Soldiers in attendence did not care at all to put forth the effort?? I'm not talking about some 40hr week course such as Combatives 1 or Combat Lifesaver. The only time I have seen people slack off are at NCOES and they still pass fairly easy. At everyschool I have attended the DHG and HG has earned a near perfect score.


Air Assault mostly. Pathfinder a bit too but since it's really all academic work people pushed harder. A few supply classes i took for additional duty, AMPS training, some S2 bullshit someone had me go through for no reason. Though those weren't long classes so I suppose they shouldn't count.

Things like WLC people go for more i'll agree on that. But for MOS training? I'd be surprised for anywhere near a 90% average.

quote:
I never denied this but usually outside of the military if you fail a test, you've failed. The End.


Says who? There are often re-tests or a way to improve your overall grade, and there rarely is a minimum score you have to achieve on a single test. The overall grade is important.

quote:
Are talking about training or testing. It's testing, still, your test written test will more than likely be multiple choice.


Most likely yes, but not always. There was visual training for mine as well as a memorization aspect. As for MOS training being different I was merely referring to the atmosphere. People try less.
quote:
Originally posted by momof68w:
Well, so true that my son's side of "story" is the only one I am hearing. Doesn't really mean he is a big baby, ha! I don't know where I said he was a whiner who needed special treatment. He will figure it out, AGAIN, I was just trying to get some info and context around the situation.

I can clearly understand the the Army wants well-prepared and trained soldiers in each MOS who can do their work effectively. Not ones who can't perform and so suck the system dry getting treatment for injuries when they'll never be able to do their job. Makes total sense and shines a light on the sacrifices you all make to serve -- you can get hurt! And if you get hurt during IET it is a sad story. I am praying he passes and graduates.

Thanks to those of you who were courteous. There is always a neutral (or even nice) way to convey bad news. Others -- you can be a jerk from your computer, that's your right.

I am regretful I posted a question to begin with, it was a moment of weakness! It won't happen again. Smiler I hope you all have a mom who cares for you!


Don't take the insults to heart. You asked a good question in an intelligent way. Unfortunately as people have already mentioned if he's hurt badly he could face a chapter. His best bet is to try and suck it up and pass and then get help for it at his unit. Though that likely won't have him on good grounds with his unit once he gets there.

It's just a poor situation to be in, especially if he's a hard worker like you said.
@ eyeinthesky

Referring to college courses when you test outside of the military, if you fail the test you fail the test. I have taken very very few classes that allow a retest. Sure you can ask the teacher for extra credit but still, some teachers don't offer extra credit. My point was not if you fail the civilian test you fail the class but if you fail the test you fail the test and there is no retest. One of my points is and was military tests are far easier than cilivian tests.

Even schools like Air Assault the DHG and HG had test avgs in the upper 90's. Besides Air Assault is a poor example. Schools like Jumpmaster, Pathfinder, EMT, etc the personnel in attendence care about their performance and being there.

As you progress through the NCOES there is much more effort put into the school, still you have those NCOs who slack and you have those who exceed the standard

If you want to say some schools personnel don't care as much and just want to pass sure, I'll agree with that. Airborne School, Air Assault, Combatives, CLS sure. But there are schools that require studying after hours and those I know the Soldiers in attendence care.

MOS Training, you win. I will drop it because I am an 11B and we really did not have written, oral, or visualization test. So have to give it to you.
quote:
Referring to college courses when you test outside of the military, if you fail the test you fail the test. I have taken very very few classes that allow a retest. Sure you can ask the teacher for extra credit but still, some teachers don't offer extra credit. My point was not if you fail the civilian test you fail the class but if you fail the test you fail the test and there is no retest. One of my points is and was military tests are far easier than cilivian tests.

Even schools like Air Assault the DHG and HG had test avgs in the upper 90's. Besides Air Assault is a poor example. Schools like Jumpmaster, Pathfinder, EMT, etc the personnel in attendence care about their performance and being there.

As you progress through the NCOES there is much more effort put into the school, still you have those NCOs who slack and you have those who exceed the standard

If you want to say some schools personnel don't care as much and just want to pass sure, I'll agree with that. Airborne School, Air Assault, Combatives, CLS sure. But there are schools that require studying after hours and those I know the Soldiers in attendence care.

MOS Training, you win. I will drop it because I am an 11B and we really did not have written, oral, or visualization test. So have to give it to you.


Military tests are easier than most civilian tests I agree. I was merely suggesting looking outside of that fact. When you fail a military test for good you're done. When you fail a civilian test it may not mean anything at all, even if you can't re-take it or get extra credit. I think it evens out a bit. I was working on computer courses in college before the military, might have just been the field with extra work to make up for a poor performance.

I think we agree on a lot of it honestly.
quote:
Originally posted by momof68w:
Well, so true that my son's side of "story" is the only one I am hearing. Doesn't really mean he is a big baby, ha! I don't know where I said he was a whiner who needed special treatment. He will figure it out, AGAIN, I was just trying to get some info and context around the situation.

I can clearly understand the the Army wants well-prepared and trained soldiers in each MOS who can do their work effectively. Not ones who can't perform and so suck the system dry getting treatment for injuries when they'll never be able to do their job. Makes total sense and shines a light on the sacrifices you all make to serve -- you can get hurt! And if you get hurt during IET it is a sad story. I am praying he passes and graduates.

Thanks to those of you who were courteous. There is always a neutral (or even nice) way to convey bad news. Others -- you can be a jerk from your computer, that's your right.

I am regretful I posted a question to begin with, it was a moment of weakness! It won't happen again. Smiler I hope you all have a mom who cares for you!


If your son does get chaptered let him know to keep his head high! He actually stepped up and took the challenge. Thats alot more to say than most kids his age. He has nothing to be ashamed of, and in a time of war alot of people tend to forget that we are not drafted, we volunteer to step in front of harms way. And we do it day in and day out. Also, if this is still his dream, he gets out, recovers and based upon a few factors which I am not fully aware of, he can come back into the army, and if he does that hes at an advantage. He will know exactly what to expect! Congrats on being an army mom, you should be proud!!!
all military tests require a score of 70% OR higher to pass. normally ones that require a 80 or 90 or 100% score are stupid easy, or they are a test issued from someone else besides the military, but the Military requires it. think the USAREUR license..

for MOSQ courses... it is still 70% for passing.
16 years as 11B and 1 year as 74D.. whatever schools inbetween.. its all the same.. 70%.
im not saying this is the defacto golden rules for every single test out there in the army, but chances are, if you name something that is different, it is most likely way out of the norm, and most likely has some type of restrictions on it or tied to something else.

to help with the Honor Grad, and Dist. HG..
at WLC a few years ago, i scored a 94% and wasnt even in the top 10.. a buddy of mine got a 95% and was the Dist. HG.. scores are one thing, but also how you board are another.

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