PT Score with Perm Profile

Hello everyone. Need some help here. I am working on an NCOs NCOER. For the PT block I know we're required to put a PT score. The soldier has a permanent profile for the run event but is able to do the 2.5 mile walk alternate event.

I know that according to AR 600-8-19, Army Promotions and Reductions Section 3-14, b (1) (a)

"Effective 1 April 1995, Soldiers taking an alternate event for the 2–mile run and receiving a passing score receive a score for that event equal to the average of the scores for the other two events."

However, for the purposes of the NCOER, what score is reflected in the Physical Fitness section? According to FM 7-22, Army Physical Readiness, A-40

"There is no point score annotated on the DA Form 705 for the performance of alternate aerobic events. These events are scored as a GO or NO GO."

This is a bit contradictory because for a Soldier to recieve promotion points for an APFT the score must be recorded on a DA Form 705 and submitted and according to AR 800-1-19 that is authorized but according to FM 7-22 there are not points recorded on the DA Form 705 for an alternate event. So, what is allowed on the NCOER form for the APFT? AR 623-3 doesn't state anything about this as far as I'm aware.
Original Post
For PT scores and promotion points, the section you cited is correct.

So if he got an 100 on the push-ups and sit-ups then his total score is 300. 100+2=200/2=100 200+100=300 or PU/SU total is 180 so 180/2=90; 180+90=270

That score will go on the NCOER.

So you are tracking.
Not trying to question your knowledge Chief but do you happen to know in what AR or FM I could find that in?

I have his Senior Rater amongst others questioning where it is in black and white that he can have that score annotated on his NCOER.

Further more, AR 600-8-22 states that:

"Soldiers who obtain a minimum score of 270 or above, with a minimum of 90 points per event on the Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) and meet the body fat standards will be awarded the Physical Fitness Badge for Physical Fitness Excellence."

It does not dictate or mention the idea of permanent profiles and the points consideration there. The soldier accomplished a 93 in pushups and a 99 in situps and passed the 2.5 mile walk with flying colors (27:39 with an alotted time of 35:00) which would in essence give him a 96 in the walk for a grand total of 288. According to that all of the criteria have been meet with regards to the excerpt mentioned from AR 600-8-19. So is the NCO authorized the wear of the fitness badges as well. Because that is another bullet I would like to put in place for this NCO.
It's neither AR or FM but the sometimes forgotten DA PAM 623-3 Chapter 3 for NCOERS. It guides you through every Block of the evaluation.

To answer your question, you do not HAVE to put down an APFT score unless they earned badge or unless it's your Evaluation Policy for your unit.

Permanent Profiles will be PASS/FAIL for those who conduct alternate events and no annotation will be made about profile. If you in fact have to put a score then it would only be the sum of events done to exclude alternate as they are GO/NO GO. So, PU=85 / SU=90 / 2.5 Mile walk=GO total score = 175, that's why the AR/DA PAM 623-3 don't demand a PT score be mandatory unless they earn Badge and Permanent Profiles can't earn the Army Physical Fitness Badge.

SFC D
Good stuff Gentlemen,

I actually ended up finding that exact quote in the DA PAM before coming back here to check. Deployments tend to make you busy and delay your access to the internet.

@ double d: But the pamphlet says that the PT can include an alternate aerobic event. It does not actually specify in how the scoring is done for it. The only place it is written in way you mentioned is in FM 7-22. I do agree that the pamphlet is a way better reference though. As for the badge. The AR does not specify whether a badge is authorized on a permanent profile either. Technically the person did score 90 in each event according to the AR but not according to the FM. So I guess the question there is, does the AR, by it's title and authority, take precedence over an FM? I understand the AR is in regards to Promotions and Reductions but it is still an AR.

@WiseChief: I do have an E7 around me to question but he is the one questioning me at the moment. As for other senior leadership, no, in my current deployment situation I only around me three E7s as the highest rank NCO wise. Our CSM and SGM are currently stateside for various reasons leaving us senior E5s, one or two E6s and three E7s to hold up the core. NCO's lead the way! So according to you (and those around you) the Soldier should receive the score as per the guidance in the AR not the FM, correct?

In the end the Soldier can still be given an excellence in the category regardless due to other aspects but I just wanted to make sure I had all the knowledge before going back to my leadership.

Thanks for the input everyone!!

SGT(P) O
I forgot to give you reference on how to score 705 with permanent profiles:

AR 350-1 CH 1 para. 24 outlines APFT, search and you will receive guidance

I was just addressing NCOER annotations in my first response.

"I FLUNKED RECESS BECAUSE I DO NOT PLAY"
quote:
Originally posted by TheWiseChief:
quote:
DA PAM 623-3


Good stuff double d

http://www.armyhq.net/dapam-623-3/

http://www.armyhq.net/wp-conte...reporting-system.pdf


Just a slight admin note, the links you posted are to the old version of the regulation.

While what we are talking about is the same in the old on the new reg, it's best to look in the current version.

Reg as of June 2012
http://www.apd.army.mil/AdminP..._regs.asp?search=623

Pam as of June 2012
http://www.apd.army.mil/AdminP..._pams.asp?search=623
quote:
Originally posted by Draconic:
Not trying to question your knowledge Chief but do you happen to know in what AR or FM I could find that in?

I have his Senior Rater amongst others questioning where it is in black and white that he can have that score annotated on his NCOER.

Further more, AR 600-8-22 states that:

"Soldiers who obtain a minimum score of 270 or above, with a minimum of 90 points per event on the Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) and meet the body fat standards will be awarded the Physical Fitness Badge for Physical Fitness Excellence."

It does not dictate or mention the idea of permanent profiles and the points consideration there. The soldier accomplished a 93 in pushups and a 99 in situps and passed the 2.5 mile walk with flying colors (27:39 with an alotted time of 35:00) which would in essence give him a 96 in the walk for a grand total of 288. According to that all of the criteria have been meet with regards to the excerpt mentioned from AR 600-8-19. So is the NCO authorized the wear of the fitness badges as well. Because that is another bullet I would like to put in place for this NCO.



No APFT Award. But this is a tricky area. If the Soldier is doing the APFT for promotion

they will get the pushups(90)+situps(90)+go=270.

That way the Soldiers with profiles can still be promoted but that is only for the SM who take a Pushup/Situp/Aerobic Alternative. Sometimes I think they should come up with a time for the Soldiers to walk to score the maximum amount of points because I see some hauling and some walking at a snails pace.
Hello Everyone..
Just registered and I am already learning a lot of things.

I'm just in a delema here and need a quick redponce and assistance if possible.


I have a NCO that received an Article 15 and I did not mention this on his NCOER but my 1SG is forcing me to put the UCMJ action on the NCOER. I know that my 1SG is not authorised to influence what i write but i was wondering where does it say on the regulation that it canot be written in the NCOER?


I also have a question regarding an NCO that is on profile but can do the walk but she hasnt took the APFT in a while. What should I input on the APFT area? PROFILE AND WHEN SHE GOT IT?

Let me know. Thanks
quote:
Originally posted by SargeNHBP:

I have a NCO that received an Article 15 and I did not mention this on his NCOER but my 1SG is forcing me to put the UCMJ action on the NCOER. I know that my 1SG is not authorised to influence what i write but i was wondering where does it say on the regulation that it canot be written in the NCOER?


Where in the reg does it say NOT to write that into an NCOER?

Why would you not write that into their NCOER?

I would make a bullet for it and depending on what the A15 was for (simple mistake, or blatantly deserved it), maybe even check a "NO" in one of the Army Values blocks.

quote:
I also have a question regarding an NCO that is on profile but can do the walk but she hasnt took the APFT in a while. What should I input on the APFT area? PROFILE AND WHEN SHE GOT IT?


Why hasn't that Soldier taken an APFT? Is it a permanent profile? If so, make her take an APFT Monday morning.

If it is a temporary profile, put the most recent APFT data on the NCOER.
You absolutely can (and should) note UCMJ in an NCOER. While you're correct that technically the 1SG can't force you to add it, I would suggest that your life will be significantly easier if you do, especially considering the fact the Senior Rater ultimately will probably note it as well.

Like Ordnance said, if she is on a perm profile she needs to take a PT test now (and depending on how far out of tolerance she is probably flagged if she doesn't take a test). If shes is on temp then ya, its her most recent test.
According to AR 623-3, Ch. 3-20:
quote:
Comments that are prohibited will not be included in evaluation reports.
...
b. When nonjudicial punishment is given and filed in the restricted portion of the OMPF or locally under AR 27–10, AR 600–8–104, and AR 600–37 rating officials may not comment on the fact that such nonjudicial punishment was given to a rated Soldier. This does not preclude mentioning the rated Soldier’s underlying misconduct, which served as the basis for the nonjudicial punishment.


However, if the rated NCO has been found guilty of a UCMJ offense, that fact MAY be noted in the NCOER.

Matt
Just wanted to chime in on this Eval thang. First of all you are correct Chief about the Soldier doesnt get a score on the DA 705. The Soldier (for promotion point does get a score of 60 for his Alt. event. That score and average of the other two scores (PU 100, SU 100) is not correct. Just saying!
quote:
Originally posted by Say it with yo chest:
Just wanted to chime in on this Eval thang. First of all you are correct Chief about the Soldier doesnt get a score on the DA 705. The Soldier (for promotion point does get a score of 60 for his Alt. event. That score and average of the other two scores (PU 100, SU 100) is not correct. Just saying!


The SM get a Go or No-Go for alternate events and the calculation is the average of the PU/SU. When they take just the alternate event for cardio. If it's PU or Situp they get 60 for the event they can't do.
Oh great KOM you just confused about 50% of the NCOs who thought they knew what they were doing in regards to Permanent Profiles for promotion...but know I'm on your side and am glad you added your comment about waived PU or SU scoring.

Here is an example of 705 and promotion point scoring for a Soldier with Permanent profile in all 3 events.

705 will read:
PU = 60
SU = 60
Walk/Bike or Swim = GO

Total = 120

Promotion scoring for above example:
PU = 60
SU = 60
Walk/Bike or Swim = 60 (PU score + SU score and divide by 2 is formula for all ALTERNATE EVENTS for CARDIO ONLY...not waived PU/SU events as they receive a 60)

Total = 180

IAW AR 350-1 para. 1-24 for 705 guidance
IAW AR 600-8-19 para. 3-42 for promotion scoring in regards to APFT

"Know YOUR Craft"
I have a question. I am on a permanent profile, only do sit-up and 2.5 Walk. How is the scoring done. I have been to that the only score that counts is the sit-ups. But other have told me that 60 points are given for push-ups and the the average between both is the score for the walk. Which one is true?

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