Soldier with Permanent 'NO PT Test Run' profile still running

NCOs,

I have a Soldier who received a permanent profile a year or two ago and at the time he was having knee pain issues. Over the last two years he has successfully rehabilitated and is now running more than most other guys in my section. He has made some posts on Facebook about him running eight miles in an hour, running a 13:15 two mile, and other impressive accomplishments.

I don't have any reason to doubt he's done these things, but my question is, what can I do to get him off of his profile? He has told me he wants to wait longer to see if his knees are truly healed, but I think at this point he's just holding on to the profile so he doesn't have to run the PT test.

What are my options?
Original Post
Chief, I should have specified that his profile says he can 'run at own pace and distance' so he's not technically breaking his profile.

We are deployed to Afghanistan now and so we don't have group runs. I do not believe I have any pictures of him running.

His profile is for five years and yes he does the walk.
What exactly is the concern here?

Quite honestly it seems that you see a soldier running and you're like "OOOOH, I'm gonna tell on you!!"

So long as he is following his own profile and still conducting the walk to standard, I do not see a problem.

Granted, I SUPPOSE you could speak to the 1SG or the commander about your "concerns" and actions can be initiated for him to be reevaluated by a COMPOTENT MEDICAL AUTHORITY or malingering charges be brought against him. I say this because you stated "Over the last two years he has successfully rehabilitated..."
I am all for using a profile when needed as I've had to use them myself. What I am not for is having a Soldier that can run faster/farther than most everyone else only have to do the PT test walk. I believe it gives the perception to everyone else that even though he could easily do the run, he is riding his profile. I mean, who wouldn't want a walking profile? You max pushups and situps, finish the walk in the allotted time, and you get a 300...

If he is able to do all this stuff he needs to join the rest of us in the run.
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Max:
If your Commander is registered and approved in eProfile, he or she can gain access to soldiers' profiles and see for themselves just what their limitations are. Why don't you invite your Commander to read his Facebook post. Also blocks 9 and 12 will have the names of the individuals who approved this profile. Maybe CO can have private talk with the "approval authorities" about this concern. Good luck dealing with HIPPA regs. If this soldier is "riding the system" well shame on them. I myself have had permanent profiles for a long time now. They allow me to run at my own pace and distance also. I'm very grateful to have this, and wouldn't dream of "riding the system"...

quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
NCOs,

I have a Soldier who received a permanent profile a year or two ago and at the time he was having knee pain issues. Over the last two years he has successfully rehabilitated and is now running more than most other guys in my section. He has made some posts on Facebook about him running eight miles in an hour, running a 13:15 two mile, and other impressive accomplishments.

I don't have any reason to doubt he's done these things, but my question is, what can I do to get him off of his profile? He has told me he wants to wait longer to see if his knees are truly healed, but I think at this point he's just holding on to the profile so he doesn't have to run the PT test.

What are my options?


It is usually the norm that profiles are kept in the orderly room. Command should have the hard copies.
I have a copy of his profile and it says he can run, he just can't do the PT test run.

I have researched this more and according to the regulations the Commander can ask for a reevaluation. I've already grabbed pictures of his Facebook posts where he says he is running and I plan on talking to legal tomorrow to see what can be done.

I'm afraid though that he'll get reevaluated and tell the doctor his knee still hurts and perhaps not mention how much he is running, thereby getting his profile re-approved.
Good god, since you are an expert Facebook troll you should counsel him and tell him he has 30 days to be reevaluated. If he doesn't, take it up the chain. I don't understand what the huge deal is though. Obviously he was injured enough to get a permanent profile so just let him do his thing and all will be good.
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
NCOs,

I have a Soldier who received a permanent profile a year or two ago and at the time he was having knee pain issues. Over the last two years he has successfully rehabilitated and is now running more than most other guys in my section. He has made some posts on Facebook about him running eight miles in an hour, running a 13:15 two mile, and other impressive accomplishments.

I don't have any reason to doubt he's done these things, but my question is, what can I do to get him off of his profile? He has told me he wants to wait longer to see if his knees are truly healed, but I think at this point he's just holding on to the profile so he doesn't have to run the PT test.

What are my options?


why do you think he doesnt want to run his PT test? He runs 8 miles in an ahour, can run 2 in 13:15, but you somehow think he wants to walk 2.5 miles? Either way, I would tell him he needs to go see his primary care provided to start the paperwork to get off profile, if he says no, talk to the Commander about him malingering....
quote:
Originally posted by erikwithak86:
Why are you friends with your soldiers on facebook anyways?

I'm with sprat2 on this one. If he can run 8 miles in one shot or run a 2 mile in 13:00, who cares, he's obviously in shape.


Maybe this Soldier does not have his profile blocked so he can just search for him and look at his pics...
The Soldier's profile is valid for 5 years. You do not know the the status of his knee and the information that communicated between him and his provider.

I know a Soldier that had a P2 (received two PHs in combat) and decided to run but the P2 remained. I will suggest that you talk to the Soldier about his future intent on his knee and if his intent is to remain walking then leave it as that.

I have a P2 profile and afforded to walk. On some days the pain is minimal or not there on runs and some other days there is excruciating pain after 1/4 of a mile. The profile that is provided by the Medical Provider serves a purpose or it would not have been issued in the first place.
I agree with those who said to leave the Soldier alone on this.

The Army puts a high price on being within PT standards. Apparently the Soldier is, and you want to penalize him for it. As NCOs we should be doing everything we can to HELP Soldiers, NOT be looking for ways to hem them up to kick them out.

If you have never done the 2.5 mile walk, you really have no idea what you are talking about. That walk is not a leisurely walk in the park on Sunday. If you're not moving with a purpose you CAN fail it. Only those who have never done the 2.5 mile walk talk shit about it and those who have to.

I have a P2 profile that started out as a "No running whatsoever" profile, but had it re-assessed to a "Run at own pace & distance" but 2.5 mile walk on the APFT. Can I run? Yes. But from the initial evaluation I got at Ft. Benning via an MRI, excessive running will cripple me sooner than later. Depending on the weather, my knees are either just fine or are on fire/stabbing pain.

So if your Soldier is doing well, leave him/her alone. There are worse things a Soldier can be doing. There are other things YOU could be doing to improve your other Soldiers and the unit.
Well said Matt. I did the walk a week or so ago to see how it was and I will never want to do that again. I hurt more after that than I did last month after a half marathon. This leader should be using this Soldier as an example. I wish my Soldiers would do this while on profile.
Thank you all for the comments, advice, etc.

Let me give more of the backstory. This guy is currently in his primary zone for promotion and has had some discipline issues in the past two months or so. He is a smart Soldier and I believe he definitely has the potention to become a Sergeant, however he needs to tighten up shop before I want him joining the NCO Corps.

I am concerned about making him get reevaluated, because if the doctor confirms he should still have the profile, this Soldier may try to say I am biased against him because of his physical condition, and not because of other issues.

To those who have mentioned that the 2.5 mile walk is so hard, why would a Soldier who can run 8 miles in an hour or run a 13 minute 2 mile want to do the walk then?
Erik,

The first post the OP made stated that his Soldier received the profile about a year or two ago; yet he has a copy of the profile lol.

I think the Soldier in question has taken the walk test before.

I just think this is unnecessary drama in the war zone. The high-speed runner may save the OP's life someday.
Honestly, it doesn't sound like he's shamming, it seems like he is worried about hurting himself again.

Why go to legal? He is acting within the limits of the profile and is working to get better. That doesn't mean he doesn't hurt and isn't worried that he will hurt himself again.

Honestly? Your actions will probably guarantee that he stops working out.

What is important to you? What is your end state? That he keeps rehabilitating and remains on profile or that his profile is gone? If it is the latter, I'd think you need to re-eval why you are pushing so hard for it.
He has done the walk before and he's definitely not anxious to do the run again.

I have a copy of the profile, however I don't keep it in my room which is where I was when I made this post.

So when should this Soldier get off of the profile, after five years? What if the Soldier gets into good enough shape to do a Triathalon but keeps saying his knee hurts. How would that look to you?

It is important to me because if he is able to significantly exceed Army standards for the regular PT test then why isn't he doing it? Also, if all a Soldier has to do is max pushups and situps and then they get a 300, why WOULDN'T I want to stay on the profile as long as possible? I could get a 300 every single time. Is that fair to the people who actually have to run?
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
He has done the walk before and he's definitely not anxious to do the run again.

I have a copy of the profile, however I don't keep it in my room which is where I was when I made this post.

So when should this Soldier get off of the profile, after five years? What if the Soldier gets into good enough shape to do a Triathalon but keeps saying his knee hurts. How would that look to you?

It is important to me because if he is able to significantly exceed Army standards for the regular PT test then why isn't he doing it? Also, if all a Soldier has to do is max pushups and situps and then they get a 300, why WOULDN'T I want to stay on the profile as long as possible? I could get a 300 every single time. Is that fair to the people who actually have to run?


Honestly I dont know you so I will put that disclaimer. But it seems as if this is a personnel vendetta. And has nothing to do with being concerned about this sm well being. You assume since he has a profile hes not supposed to try to improve his self physically with in his own ability. Do you think its unfair that he can run at his own pace quickly? Would it be better if he ran but was extremely slow? But no just because the SM is able to run at a pace that is still a good pace you think its unfair. Would you rather have him become one of those guys who always pull out a profile when its time to do something?

You need to consider doing a gut check and identify what is the real reason you care about this. I also have news for you there are alot of permanent profiles out there who you may see running or walking. What is your pet peeve about the scoring of the event? You seem to bring this 300 score up enough. Do the walking apft yourself and decide if its easier. Then do the swimming.
You state that your soldier is up for promotion. You also stated that “Also, if all a Soldier has to do is max pushups and situps and then they get a 300, why WOULDN'T I want to stay on the profile as long as possible?”

You are mistaken about the possibility of getting 300 points on the PT test. According to the old FM 21-20 and also U.S. Army TC 3-22.20 Army Physical Readiness Training (Supersedes FM 21-20) August 2010 Version. the most a soldier can receive if maxing PU and SU is 200 plus a “GO” for the alternate event.

U.S. Army TC 3-22.20 Army Physical Readiness Training (Supersedes FM 21-20) Paragraph A-40:
A-40. Soldiers on permanent physical profile are given a DA Form 3349. This form annotates exercises and activities suitable for the profiled Soldier. The form also stipulates the events and/or alternate aerobic event the Soldier will do on the APFT. The Soldier must perform all regular APFT events his profile permits. Each Soldier must score a minimum of 60 points on each regular event taken to PASS. The profiled Soldier must complete the alternate aerobic event in a time equal to or less than the one listed in Table A-1. The Soldier must receive a minimum passing score in the alternate event taken to PASS the test. Soldiers profiled for two or more events must take the two-mile run or an alternate aerobic event to PASS the test. Soldiers who cannot perform the 2-mile run or an alternate aerobic event cannot be tested. There is no point score annotated on the DA Form 705 for the performance of alternate aerobic events. These events are scored as a GO or NO GO.
(August 2010 Version)

And for us “old school” soldiers, FM 21-20 Paragraph 14-12:
14-12 Permanent Profiles. A permanently profiled soldier is given a physical training program by the profiling officer using the positive profile form DA 3349 (see Appendix B). The profiling officer gives the unit’s commander a list of physical activities that are suitable for the profiled soldier. He also indicates the events and/or alternate aerobic event that the soldier will do on the APFT. This recommendation, made after consultation with the profiled soldier, should address the soldier’s abilities and preference and the equipment available. (See DA Form 3349, Physical Profile, referenced in AR 40-501.)
The profiled soldier must perform all the regular APFT events his medical profile permits. Each soldier must earn at least 60 points on the regular events to receive a “go.” He must also complete the alternate event in a time equal to or less than the one listed for his age group. For example, a soldier whose profile forbids only running will do the push-up and sit-up events and an alternate aerobic event. He must get at least a minimum passing score on each event to earn a “go” for the test. A soldier whose profile prevents two or more APFT events must complete the 2-mile run or an alternate aerobic event to earn a “go” on the test. Soldiers who cannot do any of the aerobic events due to a profile cannot be tested. Such information will be recorded in their official military record.
The standards for alternate events are listed in Figure 14-9. Scoring for all alternate events is on a go/no go basis. Soldiers who do push-up and sit-up events but who take an alternate aerobic event are not awarded promotion points for APFT performance.

http://www.physicallytrained.com/

All this being said, your soldier is up for promotion. Why not point out to him that if he has his profile changed to where he runs for the APFT, he will be able to earn more promotion points, and that also having the “Physical Fitness Badge” annotated in his 201 File will make him look “high speed” to the Command, and whoever else reads his promotion packet?

Tell him that you are concerned about his profile because you don’t want other soldiers to be getting the wrong idea about him…


quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
NCOs,

I have a Soldier who received a permanent profile a year or two ago and at the time he was having knee pain issues. Over the last two years he has successfully rehabilitated and is now running more than most other guys in my section. He has made some posts on Facebook about him running eight miles in an hour, running a 13:15 two mile, and other impressive accomplishments.

I don't have any reason to doubt he's done these things, but my question is, what can I do to get him off of his profile? He has told me he wants to wait longer to see if his knees are truly healed, but I think at this point he's just holding on to the profile so he doesn't have to run the PT test.

What are my options?
King,

I never assumed that because he has a profile he shouldn't be bettering himself. I thought about this earlier today and I put myself in his shoes. If I was able to do what he was doing, I would go get myself reevaluated. I've had knee issues myself and if my knee was hurting I sure as hell wouldn't be running eight miles.

Do I think it's unfair? No, why would I? He has worked his butt off.

What does it matter if he ran, but was slow? I'm not sure where you are going with this. He has run for distance AND speed.

Would I rather him pull his profile when its time to do something? I believe that might now be happening. We aren't doing formation runs here, but when we get back is he going to pull the 'my knee hurts' card even though the week prior he was running eight miles?

What is my pet peeve? Well, I've done the walking PT test a few times and in my opinion it's ALWAYS been easier than the run. Just to jog my memory, I will do the walk tomorrow. Last time I checked you don't get scored on how fast you walk, just that you complete it.

What happens when this guy becomes an NCO and has Soldiers? He's going to be running and running on his own, but when it comes time for him to do the PT test he's gonna be walking. His Soldiers who have also been running are going to look at him and wonder why he gets to do the run and they don't. They are going to see how he gets a 300 by maxing PU/SUs and doing a walk, while they have to ACTUALLY max the events.
The 300 only comes into play for promotion points.

Also, do not frown on someone who received a profile for their condition and then say you experience pain as well. You have the opportunity to get yourself evaluated. Not all of us choose to seek medical attention but for your personal benefit, it is best to get every medical issue looked at and documented.

When I got my leg hurt in Iraq and was given a profile for it and then had my leg cut up in three places, the manner that I coordinated PT with my "healthy" Soldiers was to bike while they ran, do sprints, fartlek, intervals, indoor treadmill, low-impact elliptical, etc. The point is that a broke leader can effectively conduct PT with his section. I have accomplished this both as an NCO and Officer. I am 20 years older than most of my Soldiers but can still do more PU/SUs than them on their scale. Soldiers may still gripe (which they will do regardless) but at the end of the day, what is important, is that my supervisor is content with the manner that things that are happening.

How is this Soldier overall? Is he a good performer at his job? Professional? Motivated? Discipline? Good conduct?
Chapter 14-13 Alternate Events of FM 21-20 has the time requirements you have to meet to get a go on the walk, and also the standards of the walk (one foot on ground at all times, etc.).

And according to TC 3-22.20 Appendix A – Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) no mp3 players, CD's, or radios.

A-5. Any piece of clothing not prescribed as a component of the IPFU, ACU or commander authorized civilian attire is not permitted for wear during the APFT. Neither are devices or equipment that offer any potential for unfair advantage during testing. Unless prescribed as part of the Soldier’s medical profile, the wearing of the following items are not authorized: nasal strips, weight lifting gloves, back braces, elastic bandages, or braces. Electronic devices are also not authorized (MP3 players, radios, cell phones, and compact disc players). AR 670-1, Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia, specifies the components of the IPFU ensemble.

Good luck. IMO the walk is harder.


quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
King,

I never assumed that because he has a profile he shouldn't be bettering himself. I thought about this earlier today and I put myself in his shoes. If I was able to do what he was doing, I would go get myself reevaluated. I've had knee issues myself and if my knee was hurting I sure as hell wouldn't be running eight miles.

Do I think it's unfair? No, why would I? He has worked his butt off.

What does it matter if he ran, but was slow? I'm not sure where you are going with this. He has run for distance AND speed.

Would I rather him pull his profile when its time to do something? I believe that might now be happening. We aren't doing formation runs here, but when we get back is he going to pull the 'my knee hurts' card even though the week prior he was running eight miles?

What is my pet peeve? Well, I've done the walking PT test a few times and in my opinion it's ALWAYS been easier than the run. Just to jog my memory, I will do the walk tomorrow. Last time I checked you don't get scored on how fast you walk, just that you complete it.

What happens when this guy becomes an NCO and has Soldiers? He's going to be running and running on his own, but when it comes time for him to do the PT test he's gonna be walking. His Soldiers who have also been running are going to look at him and wonder why he gets to do the run and they don't. They are going to see how he gets a 300 by maxing PU/SUs and doing a walk, while they have to ACTUALLY max the events.
There is no possibility of getting 300 points on the PT test. According to the old FM 21-20 and also U.S. Army TC 3-22.20 Army Physical Readiness Training (Supersedes FM 21-20) August 2010 Version. the most a soldier can receive if maxing PU and SU is 200 plus a “GO” for the alternate event.

U.S. Army TC 3-22.20 Army Physical Readiness Training (Supersedes FM 21-20) Paragraph A-40:
A-40. Soldiers on permanent physical profile are given a DA Form 3349. This form annotates exercises and activities suitable for the profiled Soldier. The form also stipulates the events and/or alternate aerobic event the Soldier will do on the APFT. The Soldier must perform all regular APFT events his profile permits. Each Soldier must score a minimum of 60 points on each regular event taken to PASS. The profiled Soldier must complete the alternate aerobic event in a time equal to or less than the one listed in Table A-1. The Soldier must receive a minimum passing score in the alternate event taken to PASS the test. Soldiers profiled for two or more events must take the two-mile run or an alternate aerobic event to PASS the test. Soldiers who cannot perform the 2-mile run or an alternate aerobic event cannot be tested. There is no point score annotated on the DA Form 705 for the performance of alternate aerobic events. These events are scored as a GO or NO GO.
(August 2010 Version)

And for us “old school” soldiers, FM 21-20 Paragraph 14-12:
14-12 Permanent Profiles. A permanently profiled soldier is given a physical training program by the profiling officer using the positive profile form DA 3349 (see Appendix B). The profiling officer gives the unit’s commander a list of physical activities that are suitable for the profiled soldier. He also indicates the events and/or alternate aerobic event that the soldier will do on the APFT. This recommendation, made after consultation with the profiled soldier, should address the soldier’s abilities and preference and the equipment available. (See DA Form 3349, Physical Profile, referenced in AR 40-501.)
The profiled soldier must perform all the regular APFT events his medical profile permits. Each soldier must earn at least 60 points on the regular events to receive a “go.” He must also complete the alternate event in a time equal to or less than the one listed for his age group. For example, a soldier whose profile forbids only running will do the push-up and sit-up events and an alternate aerobic event. He must get at least a minimum passing score on each event to earn a “go” for the test. A soldier whose profile prevents two or more APFT events must complete the 2-mile run or an alternate aerobic event to earn a “go” on the test. Soldiers who cannot do any of the aerobic events due to a profile cannot be tested. Such information will be recorded in their official military record.
The standards for alternate events are listed in Figure 14-9. Scoring for all alternate events is on a go/no go basis. Soldiers who do push-up and sit-up events but who take an alternate aerobic event are not awarded promotion points for APFT performance.

http://www.physicallytrained.com/
Chief,

The 300 does come into play for promotion points, which I think makes it important to get him back into the run. He is going to be potentially getting more points than the guys running next to him.

When I started getting my knee pain I got a profile. I was used to running approximately 20 miles a week and I had to drop it to about three. It was mentally hard to drop down to that, but that's what I did to recover.

This Soldier is good at his job, however my team Sergeant and I had to counsel him today on why we aren't sending him to the board even though he's been in his primary for months. He's had numerous counselings in the last few months for discipline issues, so overall he needs to fix somethings.

Mad Max,

I will do the walk tomorrow for PT and report back. It's been awhile since I've done it, but in all honesty from what I remember it wasn't as hard as I remember my runs being. My shins hurt, yes. My lungs, not at all.

Oh, and by the way, FM 21-20 was replaced by TC 3-22.20, which was just replaced by FM 7-22 last year I believe.
LuckyLu,

Thank you for letting me know the name of the new FM. I learned something. :-) I'll have to download it when I get a chance.

Lol. Given a choice, I'd rather have hurting shins than hurting lungs any day. Of course 800mg of Motrin right before the test helps too...

Good luck with your Soldier. I hope that he corrects his mistakes and learns from them.
Max,

As far as promotion points are concerned, you need to read AR 600-8-19, not the PT FM. The 60 points for each waived event only counts for push-ups and sit-ups.

Paragraph 3-42 Military Training
b. Physical fitness tests
(1) Permanent profiles
(a) Those Soldiers with permanent physical profiles for the sit-up and/or push-ups events will be granted 60 points for each event waived and use the actual score for each event taken and must qualify on the 2–mile run or approved alternate test according to FM 21–20.
(b) Effective 1 April 1995, Soldiers taking an alternate event for the 2–mile run and receiving a passing score receive a score for that event equal to the average of the scores for the other two events.

This has not changed even with the new point system.
Did a mock walk PT test tonight..

71 Pushups
70 Situps
34:31 walk

I can honestly say for me the walk was EXTREMELY easy. Not once did I feel out of breath, nor did I really have any pain in my legs. If I had the option of doing the walk or run I would pick the walk every single time.

I am not a Super Soldier running 13 minute two miles, I probably average a 1430 or so and I'm usually pretty good with the other two events.
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
Did a mock walk PT test tonight..

71 Pushups
70 Situps
34:31 walk

I can honestly say for me the walk was EXTREMELY easy. Not once did I feel out of breath, nor did I really have any pain in my legs. If I had the option of doing the walk or run I would pick the walk every single time.

I am not a Super Soldier running 13 minute two miles, I probably average a 1430 or so and I'm usually pretty good with the other two events.


Lucky,
depending on your age that 3430 may not be passing.
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
Butt hurt for what? I do the PT run, but I wanted to do the walk to see what all the fuss was about.


Sometimes we pick and choose our fights. Are you sure this is the fight you want? Getting back to a question asked at the begining what is your end point?
King, great questions. I and my other NCO sat down with the Soldier and I asked him very pointed questions about his profile and how I perceived things to be. At this point, I think I'm just going to leave it alone even though I think it's BS. As far as I am aware we do not have the medical equipment needed to do an MRI on his knee, so for all we know he could be perfect.

He did say some things that made me wonder though. He said he didn't want to get reevaluated because if he got off of the profile and then got injured again, what would happen? I'm not sure what the difference would be between that happening now, or at the end of the five years.

He also said something about wanting to go Airborne, Air Assault, etc., and that those schools wouldn't let you attend on profile.

Strangely enough, a day or so after the sit-down I noticed he removed all of his Facebook posts about his workouts. Nothing about him running eight miles, sub 14 2-miles, etc.
LuckyLu,

I got shot in the knee. I was on profile and got myself into great shape before returning.

I stayed on profile until

1. I overcame my fear of sprinting all out with no worries of injuring myself.
2. To jump and land with no pain
3. Run 13 minute 2 mile and 37 min 5 mile.

One thing I noticed when I was hurt was some days I felt great and others I didn't. Because my knee wasn't 100%. One day I could run 3 miles at 7 min pace, thenI would need to take two days off.

I stayed on profile until I was able to run day after day. I didn't want to have to be forced to run when my knee was not up to it or I felt I needed more time off than others.

I am healthy and been of profile but years, I am a pretty good runner and still today, when it's cold my knee is stiff, when I am seated at the movies or an airplane, it stiffens up.

My point is, stop being an ASS. You don't know what the Soldier is going through. Maybe he's riding it, maybe he's not. He's not doing anything wrong.
Barbarian, I'm sorry for your injury.Your situation seems like a great example of how the system should work. I do not know the pain he is or is not in, but it irks me knowing that he could get points for a 300 PT test just by maxing pushups, situps and completing the walk.

I guess ultimately I should blame the system, and not the Soldier.
quote:
King, great questions. I and my other NCO sat down with the Soldier and I asked him very pointed questions about his profile and how I perceived things to be. At this point, I think I'm just going to leave it alone even though I think it's BS. As far as I am aware we do not have the medical equipment needed to do an MRI on his knee, so for all we know he could be perfect.

He did say some things that made me wonder though. He said he didn't want to get reevaluated because if he got off of the profile and then got injured again, what would happen? I'm not sure what the difference would be between that happening now, or at the end of the five years.

He also said something about wanting to go Airborne, Air Assault, etc., and that those schools wouldn't let you attend on profile.

Strangely enough, a day or so after the sit-down I noticed he removed all of his Facebook posts about his workouts. Nothing about him running eight miles, sub 14 2-miles, etc.



Lu,

STOP making yourself look like a fool, seriously.

1. The medical professional gave the SM a profile, and is the only one allowed to re-evaluate. Additionally, another MEB process would have to be done to get the Perm downgraded.

2. Have you ever messed your knee up? Seriously messed it up? I have torn my MCL and even though I can run, sprint, and play sports NOW I fear daily that a wrong turn can cause my knee to give out. THIS fear, esp with knee issues, is CONSTANT for those who have been through it. Unless you have torn your ACL/PCL/MCL you have no idea what the rehab, and subsequent pain/fear is like. The SM is likely VERY concerned for long term health if the profile is lifted, etc.

3. The SM has a run at own pace and distance profile. let the SM RUN AT HIS OWN PACE AND DISTANCE! Too simple.

4. SM has a Alternate event marked for his APFT; then let the SM take the alternate event and so be it. YOU ARENT A DOCTOR, you don’t get to tell SM when and what to do for the APFT.

5. If the SM would like to go Airborne/Air Assault and then gets his profile lifted for that, then it is HIS choice to take that risk! It has nothing to do with you whatsoever.

6. He removed his posts about running from FB because you are ACTIVELY LOOKING to get him in trouble, even though he is doing nothing wrong!

7. How about instead of worrying about the APFT and the profile you decide to shift your focus to the SM's other discipline issues? Did it ever cross your mind that the SM is acting out/doing those minor things because you are CONSTANTLY on his ass about the profile?

If he is doing nothing wrong, and you STILL decide to pester him about this, anyone would get fed up and act out, especially an Junior Enlisted.

To put your post into perspective, I am a Senior Leader for the Army element at this Joint Command. I have numerous officers that have perm profiles who I know can run, and I have run with.

Do you think I walk up to them come APFT time and tell them they are shamming pieces of shit for not running when I know they can?

If I had the perm profile, as a SFC, and you saw me running, would you come up to me and get on your high horse about the situation? Would you try to tell me I was a POS for running but walking on the APFT? I think not.

You are taking your frustrations about other aspects of this SM's career/attitude/experiences and using those frustrations to try and hurt the Soldier somehow. The only thing you have to grasp at the time is the APFT issue.

If you spent the time working on the APFT issue on attempting to fix the SM's other shortcomings, the SM might straighten out and think you actually give a shit about him... but from your posts defending your attitude/actions and your lack of understanding what other people here are actually telling you, you will blow it all off and think you are more right than the other leaders here.

/rant
SFC,

1. Agreed.

2. No I have not messed my knee up. Have I messed my back up, yes. Does my back still give me issues, yes. I live daily with the fear that POSSIBLY my back could give out, but I still do my best. If I was able to do tons of back exercises with a lot of weight my fear of injuring myself would probably go down significantly.

3. The SM does PT on his own.

4. I can't force the SM to run if his profile says otherwise

5. Agreed

6. I am not actively looking to get him in trouble, I am doing my best to ascertain if he is skirting the system. Seeing as how the issue isn't a black or white issue, I cannot say for sure if he is or not.

7. The two are not connected in any way, sorry. I started looking into this a week or so ago, his counselings were for previous months.


Do you think I walk up to them come APFT time and tell them they are shamming pieces of shit for not running when I know they can? Nope


- At what point is the Soldier gaming the system then? If they can do a Triathalon and are still on a 'No run for PT test' profile is that enough? Or should I just be happy that he's in great shape and not worry about it?

- I wanted to throw in there too that this Soldier has told us that during one workout he did 100 squats with various weights (more than I can lift). If this Soldier is able to do more than me why should I be running and he walking? To me it seems like his knee is more than capable of lasting on a PT test. Does that seem unreasonable to conclude?

I also wanted to say that even though this Soldier was rather saddened at us not recommending him for promotion until October/November, this morning his attitude was excellent and he said that he realized he needed to fix things and move on. I was very impressed.

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