Soldier with Permanent 'NO PT Test Run' profile still running

4. I can't force the SM to run if his profile says otherwise

*why even bring up "force" the Soldier to run? that is unless you are trying to get him in trouble... which is what it sounds like.

6. I am not actively looking to get him in trouble, I am doing my best to ascertain if he is skirting the system. Seeing as how the issue isn't a black or white issue, I cannot say for sure if he is or not.

*actually it is very black and white. he has a profile, and you have no authority to say otherwise. you do not even have the authority to question it.

- At what point is the Soldier gaming the system then? If they can do a Triathalon and are still on a 'No run for PT test' profile is that enough? Or should I just be happy that he's in great shape and not worry about it?

*This Soldier sounds like he is handling himself pretty good. so maybe focus on some other areas where this SM might need help.

- I wanted to throw in there too that this Soldier has told us that during one workout he did 100 squats with various weights (more than I can lift). If this Soldier is able to do more than me why should I be running and he walking? To me it seems like his knee is more than capable of lasting on a PT test. Does that seem unreasonable to conclude?

* go get a medical degree, and alot more rank, then you can make a decision regarding this.

I also wanted to say that even though this Soldier was rather saddened at us not recommending him for promotion until October/November, this morning his attitude was excellent and he said that he realized he needed to fix things and move on. I was very impressed.

* i would try at this point to control any damage you may have done. Right now this SM thinks you are after him. He has not done anything wrong, and he should be told to continue with whatever work out routine that he is doing as it is obviously helping him.

Hell, maybe it sounds like he could be a great choice for leading some PT sessions. this will help him become a capable leader, and instill that HIS leaders have confidence in him.
*why even bring up "force" the Soldier to run? that is unless you are trying to get him in trouble... which is what it sounds like.

- Because 98C40_35N40 said "SM has a Alternate event marked for his APFT; then let the SM take the alternate event and so be it. YOU ARENT A DOCTOR, you don’t get to tell SM when and what to do for the APFT." If you notice, he said, 'then let the SM take', which implies that I wasn't 'letting' him take his walk, which is untrue.

*actually it is very black and white. he has a profile, and you have no authority to say otherwise. you do not even have the authority to question it.

I would strongly disagree. I do have the authority to question it, how would I not? If a Soldier says that they have so much pain in their knee/back/etc that they can't even move, and then the next day I see them in the club dancing it up, I 100% have the authority to question it. To think otherwise is foolish. I would strongly disagree. I do have the authority to question it, how would I not? If a Soldier says that they have so much pain in their knee/back/etc that they can't even move, and then the next day I see them in the club dancing it up, I 100% have the authority to question it. To think otherwise is foolish.

*This Soldier sounds like he is handling himself pretty good. so maybe focus on some other areas where this SM might need help.

Agreed, we are already doing that.

* go get a medical degree, and alot more rank, then you can make a decision regarding this.

A degree means little to me. I have three pieces of paper with the word 'degree' on them, but I still know people with no papers that are smarter than me. Degrees do not make one smart or have common sense.

Hell, maybe it sounds like he could be a great choice for leading some PT sessions. this will help him become a capable leader, and instill that HIS leaders have confidence in him.

We are deployed and do PT sessions on our own as we are a 24-hour shop, so unfortunately this isn't really possible. We are deployed and do PT sessions on our own as we are a 24-hour shop, so unfortunately this isn't really possible.
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
*why even bring up "force" the Soldier to run? that is unless you are trying to get him in trouble... which is what it sounds like.

- Because 98C40_35N40 said "SM has a Alternate event marked for his APFT; then let the SM take the alternate event and so be it. YOU ARENT A DOCTOR, you don’t get to tell SM when and what to do for the APFT." If you notice, he said, 'then let the SM take', which implies that I wasn't 'letting' him take his walk, which is untrue.

*actually it is very black and white. he has a profile, and you have no authority to say otherwise. you do not even have the authority to question it.

I would strongly disagree. I do have the authority to question it, how would I not? If a Soldier says that they have so much pain in their knee/back/etc that they can't even move, and then the next day I see them in the club dancing it up, I 100% have the authority to question it. To think otherwise is foolish.

*This Soldier sounds like he is handling himself pretty good. so maybe focus on some other areas where this SM might need help.

Agreed, we are already doing that.

* go get a medical degree, and alot more rank, then you can make a decision regarding this.

A degree means little to me. I have three pieces of paper with the word 'degree' on them, but I still know people with no papers that are smarter than me. Degrees do not make one smart or have common sense.

Hell, maybe it sounds like he could be a great choice for leading some PT sessions. this will help him become a capable leader, and instill that HIS leaders have confidence in him.

We are deployed and do PT sessions on our own as we are a 24-hour shop, so unfortunately this isn't really possible.


Ok, seriously? Seriously??
Why do you keep bringing up this 300 thing? Your Soldier does not get a 300 if he does the walk. He only recieves points for the PU and SU events.

Per FM 7-22

There is no point score annotated on the DA Form
705 for the performance of alternate aerobic events. These events are scored as a GO or NO GO.
I've been on a P2 for 4 years now. While we were deployed I worked really hard in the gym to strengthen my legs. I was told by the doctors that part of the reason my knees hurt so bad was due to one half of the leg being stronger then the other muscles in the leg and my MRI showed scar tissue from previous injuries. I did what I was told and felt very confidant in myself so I worked back into running very slowly along with other things like ruck marches. I was very skeptical about getting off profile for the simple fact that once you injure something its a lot more easier to get injured again. My PCM also told me this and wouldn't even take me off profile until she saw fit and advised me to listen. She revised my profile so I could run my pt test, but I still had run at own pace because there were days that I hurt like hell, specially when its cold outside. I started running a lot more and doing a lot more rucking. I became the 2nd or 3rd fastest in our shop. I thought I was doing really good, I was training for the ruck march at Air Assault school and getting in better shape to drop a warrant packet then I blew my knee out and now I'm in the process of getting med boarded. I can't run, I can barely walk, stairs give me trouble and to think that 8-9 months ago I thought I was golden. It sucks, I caught flak from some individuals because I was fast and refused to get off profile till I was 100% confident in my ability. Since I was tired of people riding my ass and catching lip about my profile I pushed myself a little harder then I felt comfortable with. Now look where I am, on my way out the door with a bum knee. I had planned to go warrant so I could fly and make the army a career. Not anymore. For the sake of the SM, leave him alone. How would you feel if he went off on you one day because he blew his knee out since he was tired of being hounded? I've gone off on my leadership with no repercussions because now they fully understand I wasn't bsing, I've even been apologized to. Just leave him be, it isn't your body and it isn't you. He is following his profile within its given limits, back off.
Sounds to me is that you have a lot of time in your hands sergeant and it also sounds like you would love to get a P2 profile. Trust me I have seen a lot of soldiers in my career that did everything to get the walk rather than run but they paid for it. The walk is no joke
I don't think there's anything that you as his NCO can do to make him come off of profile. If he wants to, then you can certainly help him and support him. However, the issuing doc felt like he needed it and he obviously does as well. If you think he is faking, and you have proof of him breaking his profile, then you could counsel him for malingering and recommend UCMJ. However, I have seen Soldiers who stay on no-running profiles or own pace and distance profiles because of injuries that become aggravated by running everyday or running in formation. When they need to rest their knee, or ankle, or whatever, they can't because when you do PT for an hour and a half everyday, everyday is a run day! If you have reason to believe he's running on his own, then that's great because he's rehabilitating his injury and not just riding his profile. He may truly need to use his own discretion on what he can and can't do and organized unit or platoon PT doesn't allow for that. I'd leave it alone and be glad he's remaining active.
quote:
Originally posted by kall90:
I've been on a P2 for 4 years now. While we were deployed I worked really hard in the gym to strengthen my legs. I was told by the doctors that part of the reason my knees hurt so bad was due to one half of the leg being stronger then the other muscles in the leg and my MRI showed scar tissue from previous injuries. I did what I was told and felt very confidant in myself so I worked back into running very slowly along with other things like ruck marches. I was very skeptical about getting off profile for the simple fact that once you injure something its a lot more easier to get injured again. My PCM also told me this and wouldn't even take me off profile until she saw fit and advised me to listen. She revised my profile so I could run my pt test, but I still had run at own pace because there were days that I hurt like hell, specially when its cold outside. I started running a lot more and doing a lot more rucking. I became the 2nd or 3rd fastest in our shop. I thought I was doing really good, I was training for the ruck march at Air Assault school and getting in better shape to drop a warrant packet then I blew my knee out and now I'm in the process of getting med boarded. I can't run, I can barely walk, stairs give me trouble and to think that 8-9 months ago I thought I was golden. It sucks, I caught flak from some individuals because I was fast and refused to get off profile till I was 100% confident in my ability. Since I was tired of people riding my ass and catching lip about my profile I pushed myself a little harder then I felt comfortable with. Now look where I am, on my way out the door with a bum knee. I had planned to go warrant so I could fly and make the army a career. Not anymore. For the sake of the SM, leave him alone. How would you feel if he went off on you one day because he blew his knee out since he was tired of being hounded? I've gone off on my leadership with no repercussions because now they fully understand I wasn't bsing, I've even been apologized to. Just leave him be, it isn't your body and it isn't you. He is following his profile within its given limits, back off.


This is a shame to hear; physical fitness should be an individual event IMO. Best of luck to you.
I too think pt should be an individual event for the simple fact that officers prove it time and time again. I scored in the extended scale while deployed and for a short time after we came home and didn't do group pt. Now we work 10-15 hour days on a regular basis plus we do pt. Now I'm lucky to get a 200-220. The officers in the company on the other hand consistently have high scores on their pt test and they NEVER come to pt and do pt on their own. Army pt is a joke.
Leave him alone. Nothing about his situation affects you in any way. To accuse a soldier of malingering without a medical degree and having had examined him is slander, which is a crime. Lead him. Your job is to provide purpose, direction, amd motivation. Accomplish your mission and take care of your soldier. End of story.
LuckyLu,
I'm glad that I can take the alternative event. I'm 47 and have had knee surgery. Good for you to try the Walk to refresh yourself. Haven't looked up your score to see how well you did. :-)


Person who corrected me about promotion points,
I haven't looked at the regulation that you quoted, but will do so. If I'm wrong, at least I will have learned something. :-)


kall90,
I'm so, so, sorry to hear about your MEB process. :-( :-( I will pray for you that you get to stay in. Been through two myself, and the waiting is excruciating. Funny how that works. The people who want to stay in the most have to really pray and fight for it, and the people who want to get out the most are healthy as a horse...
quote:
Originally posted by kall90:
I too think pt should be an individual event for the simple fact that officers prove it time and time again. I scored in the extended scale while deployed and for a short time after we came home and didn't do group pt. Now we work 10-15 hour days on a regular basis plus we do pt. Now I'm lucky to get a 200-220. The officers in the company on the other hand consistently have high scores on their pt test and they NEVER come to pt and do pt on their own. Army pt is a joke.


By and large, yes it is. I had a 300+ when I came out of AIT and continued to score high, never below a 270. But I didn't get back to 300+ again in the entire 8 years until we deployed and I was working out on my own. Some units have the 290+ that can do PT on their own, but when I suggested it I got shot down because they wanted the stronger PT guys there to motivate the others. Of course there has to be a minimum standard because no matter what your MOS is, as a Soldier you have to be able to do physically demanding things. HOWEVER, maintaining that standard should be a personal responsibility in my opinion. Everybody's fitness levels are different, and everybody's bodies are different.
Chronic knee pain is usually a result of constant impact on the ligaments, which can often lead to Jumper's knee Jumper's knee but there are number of treatments as well as, surgery, few natural treatments as stretching exercises, Physical therapy etc. Choose anyone which suits you the best.
where you within your time limit on the walk time?
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
Did a mock walk PT test tonight..

71 Pushups
70 Situps
34:31 walk

I can honestly say for me the walk was EXTREMELY easy. Not once did I feel out of breath, nor did I really have any pain in my legs. If I had the option of doing the walk or run I would pick the walk every single time.

I am not a Super Soldier running 13 minute two miles, I probably average a 1430 or so and I'm usually pretty good with the other two events.
by that statement, you are showing your soldiers that exceeding the standard and being better than that is executable. i am on a perm profile and i walk the 2.5 miles in colorado altitude in 28 min and some change. i would rather run, but it is way too much impact on my back. and I'm 36
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLu:
I'm 31, so I had 30 seconds to spare. I really could have pushed myself a lot more too, but since all I need to do is pass, what's the point?
for promotion points only he will get a 300, he will not receive an award for getting better than a 270 nor will he receive the pt award for said 300.
quote:
Originally posted by Soldier60:
Why do you keep bringing up this 300 thing? Your Soldier does not get a 300 if he does the walk. He only recieves points for the PU and SU events.

Per FM 7-22

There is no point score annotated on the DA Form
705 for the performance of alternate aerobic events. These events are scored as a GO or NO GO.

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